R+L=J v.83

[BearQueen87]

I think that you are over-analyzing this. basically, Jon's looks shouldn't be taken as some logically and genetically reasonable looks. It is basically a literary ploy. Just like I say in all those threads "what if Jon looked Valyrian?", the point is that he was never meant to look that way. His Stark look is deliberate literary ploy made by Martin and Jon could have never looked any other way than the way he looks. It was a deliberate move, to get us in different direction from all those silver-haired Targaryens. Jon's looks has the value in not just R+L=J, but also the chagrin Catelyn felt for him, the closeness to Arya etc. This is one of those issues that shouldn't be observed scientifically, but rather through the glasses of narrative tool.

I said the same thing a page back. If he looked like a Targ, the mystery is over.

[Mladen]

I said the same thing a page back. If he looked like a Targ, the mystery is over.

Good for you :)

Just joking, haven't gone through entire thread, just several latest posts...

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

I have a question about timeline. From where do you people determine the approximate one year gap between Harrenhal Tourney & Lyanna disappearing? Is it from only wiki or some other authentic source like ssm or Martin interview?

Posting this again. Please help me wrap my head around the approx one year gap between Harrrnhal tourney and lyanna disappearing. It can also help me with "kidnapping lyanna" issue.

[IceFire125]

I was kind of bored and I remember this conversation from Arya chapter, of her and Jon looking over the courtyard at Winterfell.

“You see Prince Joffrey?” Jon asked.

“Look at the arms on his surcoat,” Jon suggested.

Arya looked. An ornate shield had been embroidered on the prince’s padded surcoat. No doubt the needlework was exquisite. The arms were divided down the middle; on one side was the crowned stag of the royal House, on the other the lion of Lannister.

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

Jon chuckled. “Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms.”

“A wolf with a fish in its mouth?” It made her laugh. “That would look silly. Besides, if a girl can’t fight, why should she have a coat of arms?”

Jon shrugged. “Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

Oh Jon, maybe once you are King, revising the rules and long overdue changes will be made. :)

And here is my interpretation of Jon's sigil.

http://i.imgur.com/kyiQMFL.jpg

original image copyrights of course, goes to GRRM and HBO.

[BearQueen87]

Posting this again. Please help me wrap my head around the approx one year gap between Harrrnhal tourney and lyanna disappearing. It can also help me with "kidnapping lyanna" issue.

I wish I could. Timeline is not my strong suit. I think someone else has the answer though. But this is what Corbon wrote when I was confused about 3 pages ago

but Aegon was conceived around the time of Harrenhal (perhaps just before, or just after) and therefore born about 9 months later. The war started around a year later, and there is no indication between Harrenhal and the 'abduction' of anything further, so it actually fits rather well if Rhaegar encountered Lyanna as the KotLT at Harrenhal, was intrigued and/or liked her, but did nothing as he was an honourable man and was already following the three dragons plan perfectly with Elia. Then 9 months later Aegon is born, which is all to plan, but then Elia is pronounced unable to have more kids, which breaks the whole plan entirely! But then Rhaegar realises that that brave and honourable (and beautiful, lets not ignore that! He may well have been somewhat smitten and ignored it as inappropriate and unnecessary to the plan, he is after all noted as being dutiful above all) girl from Harrenhal is actually representative of Ice, and fits perfectly with his plan. And she appeared to be crushing on him at Harrenhal (along with 90% of the girls in the seven kingdoms mind you), and didn't favour Robert at all, so it probably wasn't hard to jack up an elopement in a very short time.

I was kind of bored and I remember this conversation from Arya chapter, of her and Jon looking over the courtyard at Winterfell.

Oh Jon, maybe once you are King, revising the rules and long overdue changes will be made. :)

And here is my interpretation of Jon's sigil.

http://i.imgur.com/kyiQMFL.jpg

original image copyrights of course, goes to GRRM and HBO.

I like it!!

[Ygrain]

I'm feeling kind of dumb for never noticing... Those two bolded passages go together.

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King’s Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she’d been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. “I named her Barra,” she said as the child nursed. “She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …”

“She does.” Eddard Stark had touched the baby’s fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert’s firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.

“Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is.”

“I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

“And tell him I’ve not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he’d come back. So you’ll tell him I’m waiting, won’t you? I don’t want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.”

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

“Well, he has more than you, for a start.”

“How many?”

Littlefinger shrugged. Rivulets of moisture twisted down the back of his cloak. “Does it matter? If you bed enough women, some will give you presents, and His Grace has never been shy on that count. I know he’s acknowledged that boy at Storm’s End, the one he fathered the night Lord Stannis wed. He could hardly do otherwise. The mother was a Florent, niece to the Lady Selyse, one of her bedmaids. Renly says that Robert carried the girl upstairs during the feast, and broke in the wedding bed while Stannis and his bride were still dancing. Lord Stannis seemed to think that was a blot on the honor of his wife’s House, so when the boy was born, he shipped him off to Renly.” He gave Ned a sideways glance. “I’ve also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin’s tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home.”

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough … but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. “Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king’s baseborn children?”

The short man gave a sodden shrug. “He was the King’s Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for.”

Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. “It had to be more than that, or why kill him?”

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. “Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he’s like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east.”

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm feeling kind of dumb for never noticing... Those two bolded passages go together.

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King’s Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

[...]

He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

What didn't you notice? That he was comparing him both?

[J. Stargaryen]

I was kind of bored and I remember this conversation from Arya chapter, of her and Jon looking over the courtyard at Winterfell.

Oh Jon, maybe once you are King, revising the rules and long overdue changes will be made. :)

And here is my interpretation of Jon's sigil.

http://i.imgur.com/kyiQMFL.jpg

original image copyrights of course, goes to GRRM and HBO.

Blue rose sigil. :)

[Ygrain]

That the comparison was prompted by Lyanna's assessment of Robert and that the two segments are so close. He basically acknowledges here that Lyanna was right.

ETA: I was aware of both passages but never put them together.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That the comparison was prompted by Lyanna's assessment of Robert and that the two segments are so close. He basically acknowledges here that Lyanna was right.

ETA: I was aware of both passages but never put them together.

I read that one this morning (after some poster mentioned that Barra's mom was 14, I went to check... that's around the age of Lyanna... creepy). The part that got my attention was actually from Ned:

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

He thinks about Jon. He resents he's a "bastard" and how mistreated they are. Why would be saying "why MEN have such lusts?" if the one whose "lust" caused Jon would be himself?

[Ygrain]

That goes nicely with his very first PoV:

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

Also, the sentences you bolded is often used as a proof that Jon is a bastard - but it actually introduces the following dialogue about Robert's bastards.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That goes nicely with his very first PoV:

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

Also, the sentences you bolded is often used as a proof that Jon is a bastard - but it actually introduces the following dialogue about Robert's bastards.

I don't think THAT proves he's a bastard, simply that Jon isn't his and he's product of "lust".

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

And here is my interpretation of Jon's sigil.

http://i.imgur.com/kyiQMFL.jpg

original image copyrights of course, goes to GRRM and HBO.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ArabellaVidal]

I think Aerys rejected the idea of Cersie matched up with Rhaegar because he knew how dangerous Twin was.

If Rhaegar and Cersie have a child, Twin would have a reason to eliminate both Aerys and Rhaegar so that he could put his grandchild on the throne and then run the Kingdom from behind a puppet.

I agree. Aerys is rather paranoid about Tywin. Turns out, not without cause. Tywin is famous for carrying grudges and taking things too far. Exhibit A: his treatment of his father's mistress. Exhibit B: the extermination of the Raynes of Castamere and the Tarbecks. Exhibit C: Tysha's rape. All of this before Aerys rejects Cersei for Rhaegar. I think. Aerys had already earned Tywin's ire for his behaviour with Joanna on their wedding night. Why would he give Tywin even a bit more of power than as Hand?

Wasn't there also something about Aerys considering Tywin as an inferior? Targaryens usually intermarry with other Targaryens or those with noble Valyrian blood (Velaryons). Martells are one of the few families with legitimate Targaryen blood. Aerys would have seen Tywin's offer of Cersei as an act of overstepping the bounds.

[dragontamer]

A few posts ago, Apple Martini made an intriguing observation, that most people keep fixating on answering the “who” part of the riddle and not the “how” and/or the “why”. It’s like solving a murder case, by choosing the most likely suspect and then try to find the evidence that support your assumption. On the contrary; the correct path, is to identify the evidence that will lead to the perpetrator.

Having said that and acknowledging that AM and me use the same argument to reach different conclusions, I would like to say that, imo if we don’t answer positively the “how” and the “why” can never be sure of the “who”.

In order to answer the “why” the believers of the theory place Lyanna in the South and most likely (favorably?) at Harrenhal. Forgive me if I have lost truck of new data that confirms that… in that case I apologize for my entire post….. But as far as I am informed we don’t know where Lyanna was. She could be at Winterfell, from where seems almost impossible to have been kidnapped. Even if I accept the likelihood of her being South, wouldn’t Riverrun be more suitable? And why would anyone assume that she needed to “learn to be a southern lady”…. What’s up with that anyway? What is the difference between a southern lady and a northern one? Lyanna was a wild tomboy perhaps, much like Arya, both Northern ladies, but so is Sansa.

And the “why” now. This is my favorite and the reason I have being hesitant towards the theory all along. Why Lyanna and more interestingly why then? Simply because he had just learned that Elia couldn’t have any more children…meaning that if she could, he wouldn’t need Lyanna? Or maybe it just happened to have an epiphany a couple of months after Elia’s second childbirth and it so wonderfully coincided with her not being able to have more children, so as not to stain his good character.

And what about Lyanna? I believe almost everyone here admits that there was no relationship between the two after the tournament and prior to the “elopement”. And knowing Lyanna’s character, we assume it’s wonderfully logical to accept to run away with the married prince, while betrothed, just before her brother’s marriage with a man she may very well had been infatuated with, but had not seen or heard from, for an entire year.

My point and I hope you will all see it as such; it has always been to show that no matter how likely it may seem, this or any theory, imo shouldn’t be treated as facts.

[gulogirl]

As for GRRM not giving us a "real" romance between Lyanna and Rhaegar, I've wondered about this in the past, and I'm inclined to think that they did have some kind of love affair. Why? Because GRRM is constantly subverting our ideas about love and the supposedly happy endings that love - in its different forms - is supposed to bring. Most notably, he does this repeatedly with mother love, that overly-celebrated, sticky, sappy thing that is supposed to transcend all other forms of love, but actually frequently does nothing more than create horrendously biased women who are incapable of seeing their offspring's faults, and who take an incredibly selfish impulse - the desire to advance your own blood relations - and yammer on about it as if it's somehow a noble, self-sacrificing thing. Cersei is obviously the most notable instance of this in the story, but all of the other mothers - except maybe the Queen of Thorns - suffer from blindness towards their children's shortcomings, and/or a tendency to make really bad decisions based on love for their children (Catelyn Stark does this repeatedly). This holds true whether the children in question are human or dragon. It also constantly undermines the women's efficacy in playing the game of thrones. This is why the Queen of Thorns is so good - she is not blinded by love for her son; she can clearly see that he's an ineffectual idiot. If R+L = J is true, then even Lyanna's love for her son had dire reprecussions, in terms of the cost to Ned of the promises he made her to keep Jon's identity secret, and perhaps in other ways yet to be revealed.

I think it would be just like GRRM to give us the archetypal love story between a handsome, gallant prince and beautiful, spirited young woman, and then make that love into the catalyst that brings down a kingdom and results in decades of horrific war. It's the ultimate not-happy ending, and it fits right in with turning common fairy-tale themes on their heads.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A few posts ago, Apple Martini made an intriguing observation, that most people keep fixating on answering the “who” part of the riddle and not the “how” and/or the “why”. It’s like solving a murder case, by choosing the most likely suspect and then try to find the evidence that support your assumption. On the contrary; the correct path, is to identify the evidence that will lead to the perpetrator.

Having said that and acknowledging that AM and me use the same argument to reach different conclusions, I would like to say that, imo if we don’t answer positively the “how” and the “why” can never be sure of the “who”.

In order to answer the “why” the believers of the theory place Lyanna in the South and most likely (favorably?) at Harrenhal. Forgive me if I have lost truck of new data that confirms that… in that case I apologize for my entire post….. But as far as I am informed we don’t know where Lyanna was. She could be at Winterfell, from where seems almost impossible to have been kidnapped. Even if I accept the likelihood of her being South, wouldn’t Riverrun be more suitable? And why would anyone assume that she needed to “learn to be a southern lady”…. What’s up with that anyway? What is the difference between a southern lady and a northern one? Lyanna was a wild tomboy perhaps, much like Arya, both Northern ladies, but so is Sansa.

And the “why” now. This is my favorite and the reason I have being hesitant towards the theory all along. Why Lyanna and more interestingly why then? Simply because he had just learned that Elia couldn’t have any more children…meaning that if she could, he wouldn’t need Lyanna? Or maybe it just happened to have an epiphany a couple of months after Elia’s second childbirth and it so wonderfully coincided with her not being able to have more children, so as not to stain his good character.

And what about Lyanna? I believe almost everyone here admits that there was no relationship between the two after the tournament and prior to the “elopement”. And knowing Lyanna’s character, we assume it’s wonderfully logical to accept to run away with the married prince, while betrothed, just before her brother’s marriage with a man she may very well had been infatuated with, but had not seen or heard from, for an entire year.

My point and I hope you will all see it as such; it has always been to show that no matter how likely it may seem, this or any theory, imo shouldn’t be treated as facts.

It's true that we don't know yet where Lyanna was exactly. But we can be certain several places aren't an option, like Winterfell and Riverrun:

Winterfell -> If Lyanna had been at Winterfell, Brandon wouldn't have ridden south to KL. That would basically be riding in the opposite direction, and that seems, to me at least, a bit strange.

Riverrun -> Catelyn seems to have never met Lyanna.

Sure, Sansa was a northern lady, but she was raised in the ways of the south (Catelyn). Arya was totally the opposite.

Since it seems highly unlikely that Lyanna was somewhere in the North, most people place her in the south. The problem of not knowing where she was, has made people place her roughly in the middle of Westeros, until more info becomes available. And in the middle lies Harrenhal.

Above all, Lyanna did have a connection to Harrenhal. She had been there, and it was the place were Rhaegar had presented her with the crown. There were highborn ladies there (Lady Shella and her daughter) who could help Lyanna prepare for her wedding. We know there wasn't such a lady at Winterfell.

All in all, that is where the location of Harrenhal comes from. It isn't a fixed location, but it's more like "we need to place her somewhere, and since we can rule out the south (Dorne, the Reach, the Crownlands and the Stormlands) and the west (Westerlands, the Starks had no actual friends there), and the North seems unlikely (not only because of the direction Brandon travelled in, but bringing Lyanna with them for the wedding would have helped Lyanna prepare for her own wedding. So even if she had been at Witnerfell prior, it would have made most sense to bring her along). there's only very little Westeros left, and thus she was placed roughly in the middle.

[dragontamer]

It's true that we don't know yet where Lyanna was exactly. But we can be certain several places aren't an option, like Winterfell and Riverrun:

Winterfell -> If Lyanna had been at Winterfell, Brandon wouldn't have ridden south to KL. That would basically be riding in the opposite direction, and that seems, to me at least, a bit strange.

Riverrun -> Catelyn seems to have never met Lyanna.

Sure, Sansa was a northern lady, but she was raised in the ways of the south (Catelyn). Arya was totally the opposite.

Since it seems highly unlikely that Lyanna was somewhere in the North, most people place her in the south. The problem of not knowing where she was, has made people place her roughly in the middle of Westeros, until more info becomes available. And in the middle lies Harrenhal.

Above all, Lyanna did have a connection to Harrenhal. She had been there, and it was the place were Rhaegar had presented her with the crown. There were highborn ladies there (Lady Shella and her daughter) who could help Lyanna prepare for her wedding. We know there wasn't such a lady at Winterfell.

All in all, that is where the location of Harrenhal comes from. It isn't a fixed location, but it's more like "we need to place her somewhere, and since we can rule out the south (Dorne, the Reach, the Crownlands and the Stormlands) and the west (Westerlands, the Starks had no actual friends there), and the North seems unlikely (not only because of the direction Brandon travelled in, but bringing Lyanna with them for the wedding would have helped Lyanna prepare for her own wedding. So even if she had been at Witnerfell prior, it would have made most sense to bring her along). there's only very little Westeros left, and thus she was placed roughly in the middle.

Brandon travelled to KL to find Rhaegar (and maybe Lyanna) not because Lyanna was already South but because there he believed that he would find Rhaegar (and maybe Lyanna too). Why go back to Winterfell if she had been already kidnapped from there? To trace her like a hound?

Since Catelyn was to become family she had no reason not to be there despite the fact that she didn't know her, she didn't know lady Whent before meeting her too... so....

Sansa and Arya were both raised by Catelyn. One was a "proper" lady and the other not. But that's not the point, the point is that the upbringing of a child, both boy and girl, is relatively the same in Wetseros, regarding his/her responsibilities and what is expected of him/her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Brandon travelled to KL to find Rhaegar (and maybe Lyanna) not because Lyanna was already South but because there he believed that he would find Rhaegar (and maybe Lyanna too). Why go back to Winterfell if she had been already kidnapped from there? To trace her like a hound?

Since Catelyn was to become family she had no reason not to be there despite the fact that she didn't know her, she didn't know lady Whent before meeting her too... so....

Sansa and Arya were both raised by Catelyn. One was a "proper" lady and the other not. But that's not the point, the point is that the upbringing of a child, both boy and girl, is relatively the same in Wetseros, regarding his/her responsibilities and what is expected of him/her.

I wasn't saying it hadn't been the plan to get Lyanna to Riverrun in time for the wedding. I was saying that if that had been the plan, she would have travelled with her father and brother, from Winterfell, if that was where she had been.

Usually, when someone disappears, and the person who did the kidnapping cannot be found, the scene of the crime is the best place to start ;)

So If Lyanna had been north, IMO, Brandon would not have blindly travelled south, but he would have turned back, especially since Rhaegar/Whent/Dayne and Lyanna would need to travell past the same routes as he was traveling at that moment.

[BearQueen87]

I read that one this morning (after some poster mentioned that Barra's mom was 14, I went to check... that's around the age of Lyanna... creepy). The part that got my attention was actually from Ned:

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

He thinks about Jon. He resents he's a "bastard" and how mistreated they are. Why would be saying "why MEN have such lusts?" if the one whose "lust" caused Jon would be himself?

Nice catch. Also, as I'm sure we're all aware, it really goes against Ned's character to have "such lusts". The boy could barely ask Ashara Dayne to dance. He's not fond of brothels either. (Seriously he and Rhaegar would have been good friends)

As for GRRM not giving us a "real" romance between Lyanna and Rhaegar, I've wondered about this in the past, and I'm inclined to think that they did have some kind of love affair. Why? Because GRRM is constantly subverting our ideas about love and the supposedly happy endings that love - in its different forms - is supposed to bring. Most notably, he does this repeatedly with mother love, that overly-celebrated, sticky, sappy thing that is supposed to transcend all other forms of love, but actually frequently does nothing more than create horrendously biased women who are incapable of seeing their offspring's faults, and who take an incredibly selfish impulse - the desire to advance your own blood relations - and yammer on about it as if it's somehow a noble, self-sacrificing thing. Cersei is obviously the most notable instance of this in the story, but all of the other mothers - except maybe the Queen of Thorns - suffer from blindness towards their children's shortcomings, and/or a tendency to make really bad decisions based on love for their children (Catelyn Stark does this repeatedly). This holds true whether the children in question are human or dragon. It also constantly undermines the women's efficacy in playing the game of thrones. This is why the Queen of Thorns is so good - she is not blinded by love for her son; she can clearly see that he's an ineffectual idiot. If R+L = J is true, then even Lyanna's love for her son had dire reprecussions, in terms of the cost to Ned of the promises he made her to keep Jon's identity secret, and perhaps in other ways yet to be revealed.

I think it would be just like GRRM to give us the archetypal love story between a handsome, gallant prince and beautiful, spirited young woman, and then make that love into the catalyst that brings down a kingdom and results in decades of horrific war. It's the ultimate not-happy ending, and it fits right in with turning common fairy-tale themes on their heads.

I think that's how I read it more than anything--though I agree prophecy played a role. Maybe it's a mix of both ideas: Rhaegar took Lyanna at her request to escape Robert and because he realized she would fufil the prophecy for a third child, this one a mix of ice and fire and then, it turns out, they fell madly in love. And then hell broke loose.

i