The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully

[Minsc]

Had to act why? Was Tyrion going to snatch her himself? What was so dire that she had to grab him? Him possibly telling Cersie or Jaime that he ran into her on the Kingsroad? how would that have made things any worse for Ned in Kingslanding than her abduction of Tyrion actually did? at the most Jaime and Cersie would have made sure not to cross Ned and Jaime would not have actually tried to kill him.

If Tyrion was the kind of person that is willing to hire an assassin to kill a young boy then why wouldn't he be willing to hire a number of sellswords to kill/capture her?

Moreover, if Tyrion returns to King's Landing and tells Jaime and Cersei that Catelyn and Ned have been secretly meeting would inform them that Ned and Catelyn are onto them. Thus, moving them to kill Ned just like they did Jon Arryn in how the Starks don't hold any hostages to keep them from acting against him.

[The Golden Wolf]

Snip

Snip

I can concede that Robb initially needed her advice. but as time went on he became more able and Catelyn was no longer needed.

really Bran had no input? That show be confusing a man. Ser Rodrick actually on his own emptied out almost the entire 900 man garrison of Winterfell to chase Ironborn who had to be 150-200 miles away? That is a failure of duty as he left the Heirs to the North undefended which does not seem to capable.

Except what did she need to say to Ned that Ser Rodrick (who you admit is a faithful and most dutiful vassal of House Stark) could not deliver on his own? Ned is not Brandon who would have rashly attacked Jaime in the streets after hearing the news. no he would have waited for the right moment and defeat all his foes in one fell swoop. All her going to Kingslanding does is allow Littlefinger the chance to implicate Tyrion and since he is trusted by Catelyn his words is taken to heart. with Ser Rodrick instead Littlefinger has no means of involving himself into the affairs of house Stark. and there would be no implicating of Tyrion as the hirer of the assassin.

This leads to the events at the Inn at the Crossing. where she only has the word of a sister she has not seen in ages and a former childhood friend to go on. All she has to do is acknowledge the Imp not arrest him. Just being cordial would have went a long way. but instead we get that scene in the Inn.

Cersie and Jaime are not so rash as to try and kill another Hand so soon. she only speeds up the plots on Robert because of the investigation into the true paternity of her children. Ned would only have the notion that 1) Jaime may have pushed Bran from the window because of something he saw and 2) then someone tried to kill Bran. It wouldn't be until he actually pieced together that the Royal children are not in fact Royal children but bastards born of incest that everything would gel into place.

The Abduction actually places him and the girls into more of a precarious situation. before that they could at least play nice with the Lannisters.

the main difference would be that Tywin would not have any excuse to unleash Gregor on the Riverlands. You can say He started the war but Catelyn did provoke him.

[Minsc]

This leads to the events at the Inn at the Crossing. where she only has the word of a sister she has not seen in ages and a former childhood friend to go on. All she has to do is acknowledge the Imp not arrest him. Just being cordial would have went a long way. but instead we get that scene in the Inn.

Cersie and Jaime are not so rash as to try and kill another Hand so soon. she only speeds up the plots on Robert because of the investigation into the true paternity of her children. Ned would only have the notion that 1) Jaime may have pushed Bran from the window because of something he saw and 2) then someone tried to kill Bran. It wouldn't be until he actually pieced together that the Royal children are not in fact Royal children but bastards born of incest that everything would gel into place.

The Abduction actually places him and the girls into more of a precarious situation. before that they could at least play nice with the Lannisters.

Most people trust their siblings and old friends. That would be a good decision if she wants to be stabbed in the back by hired sellswords that Tyrion bribes from the inn.

Have you meet Jaime and Cersie? You do realize she would probably suspect that Bran woke up and told Catelyn what he saw thus why she was snooping around King's Landing.

What Ned actually knows isn't important in comparison to what Cersei and Jaime believe he knows.

No it doesn't, in how now she has a hostage to ensure the Lannisters don't act against her family. The Lannisters already weren't playing nice.

I can concede that Robb initially needed her advice. but as time went on he became more able and Catelyn was no longer needed.

When was that?

[mb2518]

Catelyn may have been the smartest woman in the series. Biggest things against her are her treatment of Jon and freeing Jaime, thereby undermining Robb. She could not have predicted that Lysa was now bat-shit insane. Catelyn did have a good head for politics. She would have been ten times the queen Cersei is. Almost all of Robb's mistakes could have been avoided by listening to her advice.

[Cat Alayne]

I can concede that Robb initially needed her advice. but as time went on he became more able and Catelyn was no longer needed.

really Bran had no input? That show be confusing a man. Ser Rodrick actually on his own emptied out almost the entire 900 man garrison of Winterfell to chase Ironborn who had to be 150-200 miles away? That is a failure of duty as he left the Heirs to the North undefended which does not seem to capable.

Except what did she need to say to Ned that Ser Rodrick (who you admit is a faithful and most dutiful vassal of House Stark) could not deliver on his own? Ned is not Brandon who would have rashly attacked Jaime in the streets after hearing the news. no he would have waited for the right moment and defeat all his foes in one fell swoop. All her going to Kingslanding does is allow Littlefinger the chance to implicate Tyrion and since he is trusted by Catelyn his words is taken to heart. with Ser Rodrick instead Littlefinger has no means of involving himself into the affairs of house Stark. and there would be no implicating of Tyrion as the hirer of the assassin.

This leads to the events at the Inn at the Crossing. where she only has the word of a sister she has not seen in ages and a former childhood friend to go on. All she has to do is acknowledge the Imp not arrest him. Just being cordial would have went a long way. but instead we get that scene in the Inn.

Cersie and Jaime are not so rash as to try and kill another Hand so soon. she only speeds up the plots on Robert because of the investigation into the true paternity of her children. Ned would only have the notion that 1) Jaime may have pushed Bran from the window because of something he saw and 2) then someone tried to kill Bran. It wouldn't be until he actually pieced together that the Royal children are not in fact Royal children but bastards born of incest that everything would gel into place.

The Abduction actually places him and the girls into more of a precarious situation. before that they could at least play nice with the Lannisters.

the main difference would be that Tywin would not have any excuse to unleash Gregor on the Riverlands. You can say He started the war but Catelyn did provoke him.

It is clear that he became less willing to hear her advice, and gained a sort of kingly confidence, but more able? Most of Robb's mistakes were made towards the end of the war!

In the book the only role Bran had in ruling Winterfell was welcoming guests to their hall and hearth. Beyond that Rodrik and Luwin did everything. He is 7 years of for christ sake.

Ser Rodrik frowned. “Well, should it happen that I need to ride against these raiders myself, I shan’t take Alebelly, then. He didn’t see me drowned, did he? No? Good.”

He found Luwin perched on a high stool, writing. With Ser Rodrik gone, all of the governance of the castle had fallen on his shoulders.

As for Catelyn going to KL, It wasn't that she didn't trust trust rodrik to go alone, but that it was in her character to go herself. When it comes to her family Catelyn is extremely protective, and would only entrust the role with herself.

I'd say the words of Lysa and Petyr are quite reliable from Catelyn's perspective, given she would have no possible way of knowing what had become of them.

Catelyn doesn't know what Cersei and Jaime would do! Thats why she had to capture him, incase the worst would have happened.

By that logic, you could say Tyrion provoked Catelyn to start the war. Catelyn acted logically.

[Cat Alayne]

Catelyn may have been the smartest woman in the series. Biggest things against her are her treatment of Jon and freeing Jaime, thereby undermining Robb. She could not have predicted that Lysa was now bat-shit insane. Catelyn did have a good head for politics. She would have been ten times the queen Cersei is. Almost all of Robb's mistakes could have been avoided by listening to her advice.

The best thing about Catelyn is that she is one of the few intelligence characters whose brains are used for good reasons. Almost all the 'clever, intelligent' characters of the series are also cunning, scheming and manipulative (think baelish, tywin e.t.c.).

[David Selig]

Great thread obviously.

I think people on this board, me included, focus way too much on the big decisions and their results when judging the characters intelligence. Which is wrong for 2 results - often the result is bad for them through no fault of their own (yet they are still bashed for it) and also sometimes the plot necessity forces the characters to hold the Idiot Ball for a bit and they act out of character to move the plot along. I think focusing on more minor decisions and thoughts on non-plot decisive matters gives a better indication of character's intelligence. Also we shouldn't focus on results only. Sometimes dumb decisions work out in the end due to luck or plot contrivance, but they are still dumb decisions.

[LordStoneheart]

Whoa I never really noticed the thing about the Others in her first chapter in that way. Awesome.

This is a great thread and it really brings out that old adage "haters gonna hate."

[Knight Of Winter]

Great post. While I nitpickily disagree sith few minor points (like 22 and 28), OP makes several great points explaining Catelyn's virtues and smarts. I do have a feeling that her intelligence is often underestimated here.

Now I have a new link as answer to all people who constantly repeat same old "Catelyn is dumb" "Catelyn didn't do anything smart" mottos again and again :).

[Mark Antony]

Well done OP great thread

[Mulled Wino]

No it doesn't, in how now she has a hostage to ensure the Lannisters don't act against her family. The Lannisters already weren't playing nice.

Well, that didn't work out well for her.

Anyway...Cat was very astute, it's true what someone mentioned upthread about seeing Cat's chapters from her eyes and not being influenced by other POV's. She was absolutely a smart woman. She is spot on with her advice to Robb, I mean the Grey Wolf stuff made me CRAZY and it totally gave away the Red Wedding to me and that plot line. She was brilliant with the Renly treat and the meeting with the Baratheon brothers. IMO she was right to stick around Robb, he needed her counsel and support (although he didn't listen enough and he should have acknowledged her worth and valued her opinions more). I also don't hold it against her that she initially wanted Ned to take the Hand job, it was a big political move and the realm needed him. I DO NOT give her credit for trying to get him not to go at a later point though. By that time, her decision was fueled by grief and it was too late.

I think her problems came in a few areas:

1) She doesn't listen to other people's advice because she thinks she's always right, and she's pretty condescending. One example was not listening to Rodrik and staying at the busiest inn on the busiest road in Westeros.

2) Once she makes a decision, she sticks with it but she has no problem with changing plans after she makes a decision with others. I'm thinking specifically about the trip to the Vale with Tyrion, the Jamie thing (regardless of how you feel about her decision it wasn't her decision to make), and the Ned/LF thing when everyone agreed NOT to tip off the Lannisters of anything no matter what.

3) Blindly trusting Petyr and taking everything he said as facts. Naivety at its finest.

[HexMachina]

Great thread, I agree with most of the OP (not going to lie, I skimmed over some parts). Yeah she made some bad decisions, but a lot of them are only bad in hindsight or with knowledge Catelyn couldn't possibly possess (such as Petyr lying to her). She isn't perfect by any means, but she is one of, if not the most, intelligent female characters in the series imo. Asha shows similar wisdom with her propositions to the Ironborn (make peace with the North) but certainly Catelyn is the first woman I think of when intellgent females of the series are mentioned

ETA: Regarding not being there for Bran and Rickon, I think her decision makes total sense. As far as anyone is aware, the North is safe. The Ironborn attacks occur rather suddenly, and by this time its too late to do anything or get back. She thinks Bran and Rickon are safe. By contrast, her eldest son is at war and in danger, so every day could be his last. She also has her father to be with as he dies, something she makes very clear throughout. This imo is her primary motivation for not returning North, and is very much understandable

[littleRickon]

nice list OP!

I am an absolute Cat-lover and I think she is by far the most intelligent woman in the series and it's a bit of irony that GRRM, who shows some problematic trends with his (still very good) female character finds so much hate towards what I think is a genuinely strong, good and intelligent female character. Maybe it's because she isn't successful in what she wants to achieve, people still judge based on results way too much.

She generally displays a very good amount of thinking ahead, judging people, staying rational in face of overwhleming emotions while being emotional enough for true empathy.

I would add the catnip to your list of good decision, but that would turn the whole thread into a flame-war, and there are very good threads about it anyway. Buttbumps has pretty much refuted every single argument against her.

What I would add is, how impressive her handling of Robb in the beginning of the campaign really is. She makes the intelligent, rational decisions, as you correctky pointed out, e.g. not having the GreatJon command the foot army, but she has enough emotional intelligence to give this advice to Robb in a way that does not destroy his self-confidence. This is an extreme feat, and I think there isn't a single character in ASOIAF who could have done it. It's her being rationally and emotionally intelligent at the same time.

[Cat Alayne]

I think her problems came in a few areas:

1) She doesn't listen to other people's advice because she thinks she's always right, and she's pretty condescending. One example was not listening to Rodrik and staying at the busiest inn on the busiest road in Westeros.

2) Once she makes a decision, she sticks with it but she has no problem with changing plans after she makes a decision with others. I'm thinking specifically about the trip to the Vale with Tyrion, the Jamie thing (regardless of how you feel about her decision it wasn't her decision to make), and the Ned/LF thing when everyone agreed NOT to tip off the Lannisters of anything no matter what.

3) Blindly trusting Petyr and taking everything he said as facts. Naivety at its finest.

Yes I agree, Catelyn is pretty stubborn, its pretty clear that Robb and Arya get there stubborness from Catelyn, who in turn gets it from her father. This can sometimes cloud her judgment as she believes her approach is right and the best. Which it often is to be honest. I wouldn't say she's condescending thought, just headstrong.

I wouldn't call trusting Petyr naivety, and would certainly oppose accusations that Catelyn is naive. Alot of people trusted Petyr, he wasn't the husky voiced thumb, twiddling villain he is on the show, but an outwardly helpful friendly man, which is what makes him so brilliant at court intruige. Besides, is it illogical or naive to think that the man who nearly died for you, professed to love you madly, and was brought into his position by your sister would deceive you in such a way? Petyr grew up with her, and was like a sibling to her.

[Barty]

Like most characters she made some good decisions and some poor ones. And some dicey decisions which could have gone either way(both for and against her).

But her good decisions are good only if one's first priority is to secure the safety of the Stark family. Ned's priority became to get justice for Jon Arynn. Robb's priority became the North's freedom. So from their perspectives her decisions/advice were poor.

She was an intelligent woman and perhaps she should have used her intelligence to try and win the war.

[Peter George Stewart]

I don't think any of Cat's decisions are stupid at all, they're all pretty much good decisions by a good person.

But part of the point of the books is that good actions don't invariably lead to good results down the road, and Cat's arc is a prime example of that.

Another example in the opposite direction (bad actions sometimes leading to good results down the road) might be Theon's terrible actions leading to the sacking of Winterfell. Awful. But ... it leads to Bran going North, and that probably leads eventually to the demise of the WW.

[Cat Alayne]

Like most characters she made some good decisions and some poor ones. And some dicey decisions which could have gone either way(both for and against her).

But her good decisions are good only if one's first priority is to secure the safety of the Stark family. Ned's priority became to get justice for Jon Arynn. Robb's priority became the North's freedom. So from their perspectives her decisions/advice were poor.

She was an intelligent woman and perhaps she should have used her intelligence to try and win the war.

With a lot of the dicey decisions, she was either forced into them, or making the best of a negative situation.

I disagree that her decisions only were to benefit the Stark family. Think of all the times she advised Robb to call for a peace, or Renly for a great council, or when their chances of winning seemed slim, bend the knee to the Lannisters to foster peace. She recognized the futility of the war, after Ned died and advocated against it so that there would be no more bloodshed. that seems to have the best interests of general humanity in mind. Don't forget that Catelyn also urged Ned to investigate Jon Arryn's murder in KL.

She did try to use her intelligence to win the war… she tried to allign with Renly remember, before Shadowbaby happened.

[butterbumps!]

Overall, I think Catelyn is not appreciated by the fanbase enough, and gets too harshly criticized as "stupid" or "the doom of her house". I think that the real way to see her is as someone whose consistently good ideas and thoughts are never followed upon by the people she directs them too. I think the real tragedy is that people don't listen to Catelyn not that Catelyn herself is a negative influence

1. Were it in my power, I'd give you a raise.

2. And a congratulatory fruit basket

3. or a subscription to a "steak of the month" club, if that's your preference.

The reasons you list are exactly why Cat was the character I immediately took to: she really is set up as a, if not the, voice of reason, for a good portion of her time in the story.

It doesn't matter that some of her decisions didn't pan out beneficially in hindsight. I think the point stands that the way she approaches problems, weighs options, and generally thinks through solutions is extremely reasonable. Even some decisions that have an emotional base that are controversial-- like Jaimegate-- are actually thought through really rationally by Cat. I think it's easy to see a decision that became a mistake in hindsight as having been a "stupid choice," but the way she goes about making these decisions is anything but stupid. She's a flexible thinker, she's quick to see an opportunity or implication, and she's not afraid to re-evaluate her premises when new information presents itself.

[Barty]

With a lot of the dicey decisions, she was either forced into them, or making the best of a negative situation.

I disagree that her decisions only were to benefit the Stark family. Think of all the times she advised Robb to call for a peace, or Renly for a great council, or when their chances of winning seemed slim, bend the knee to the Lannisters to foster peace. She recognized the futility of the war, after Ned died and advocated against it so that there would be no more bloodshed. that seems to have the best interests of general humanity in mind. Don't forget that Catelyn also urged Ned to investigate Jon Arryn's murder in KL.

She did try to use her intelligence to win the war… she tried to allign with Renly remember, before Shadowbaby happened.

Of course she did - but her first priority was always to ensure the safety of the family(which is understandable - and I do not blame her for it). Her advice to call for peace - not very good if you want to gain independence for the North. All I am saying is her first priority was never to win, it was always to survive. Not a risk taker and hence a poor commander if you want to win the Game of Thrones.

As for dicey decisions - yes she was forced into a few like kidnapping Tyrion, but others were purely voluntary - going into the twins to talk to Frey. That man is treasonous and everyone knows it. Robb was a young commander barely holding his troops together, his father a captive and you decide to enter all alone into a potential enemy castle?? Robb's campaign could have ended there itself had Frey decided to take Catelyn captive. Fortunately that was a dicey decision that turned out well for her since Frey was not interested in taking her captive. Though I cant help but wonder what terms would have been agreed upon if Robb had sent in a more respected/scary person - like the BlackFish.

[Mulled Wino]

Yes I agree, Catelyn is pretty stubborn, its pretty clear that Robb and Arya get there stubborness from Catelyn, who in turn gets it from her father. This can sometimes cloud her judgment as she believes her approach is right and the best. Which it often is to be honest. I wouldn't say she's condescending thought, just headstrong.

I wouldn't call trusting Petyr naivety, and would certainly oppose accusations that Catelyn is naive. Alot of people trusted Petyr, he wasn't the husky voiced thumb, twiddling villain he is on the show, but an outwardly helpful friendly man, which is what makes him so brilliant at court intruige. Besides, is it illogical or naive to think that the man who nearly died for you, professed to love you madly, and was brought into his position by your sister would deceive you in such a way? Petyr grew up with her, and was like a sibling to her.

I think she comes across as self important in many of her conversations and thoughts, probably simply because she's highborn and it's GRRM's amazing writing for the Cat chapters. I mean, it is accurate, but that type of attitude grates on me.

Anyway, as far as Petyr, Cat knew him, but doesn't "know" him. She knows what KL is and Petyr has been there for years in the think of things. It's naive to believe he is still that same doting boy with a crush on her. She knows how he made his way up from almost nothing and that absolutely doesn't happen in their world by being nice and friendly. If she took anything he said with at least a little grain of salt, things may have been different. It's weird that she puts so much faith in him, but then broke their agreement and took Tyrion the one time she goes against anything Petyr told her or that they agreed upon.