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The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully


Salinda

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She definitely has less than say a Selsye but more than an Arya, lol. It's the way her conversations and internal dialogue come across. I don't have a book on me right now, but I have posted examples in the past.

Of course a thirty somthing great lady of two great noble houses is going to have more self confidence than her outcast little daughter. She talks to mya of being brave because she is a tully-stark, but every main character draws upon their house for strength, Arya moreso than cat. If she comes across as sharp, like when interacting with her brother, I think intense grief combined with familiarity are the cause of this.

Lol, you thought I was serious with the Selsye/Arya thing????

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She wasn't stupid clearly, to say so is wrong but she was an emotional woman who often let her feelings impede more practical concerns. My biggest criticism of her would be the failure to secure Margaery for Robb after Renly's death and instead save Brienne. Huge political mistake.


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She wasn't stupid clearly, to say so is wrong but she was an emotional woman who often let her feelings impede more practical concerns. My biggest criticism of her would be the failure to secure Margaery for Robb after Renly's death and instead save Brienne. Huge political mistake.

Robb was already promised to a Frey, and I highly doubt Mace Tyrell would allow Margaery to marry Robb.

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Here's the problem with LF.

I agree that his lie was really thin. There's the issue that the lie played upon the information she already had and deduced: that Cersei killed Jon Arryn, and Jaime pushed Bran, so a second attempt on Bran's life made by the 3rd Lannister sibling would seem to make sense. It gives the lie plausibility.

But once presented with additional info- Tyrion never betting against Jamie, she gives pause but still ends up trusting Petyr. What Tyrion said was so much more believable.

But the crux of the issue is that she can't figure out any reason LF would want to lie to her. Not even necessarily that she trusts him, but really, it makes no sense from her perspective what motivation LF would have or what he'd gain from this. And that's LF's whole racket-- do things that appear to go against his interests, because no one really understands how LF thinks yet, and what his "interests" really are.

She doesn't have to figure out a reason why, just like she doesn't trust Varys but doesn't know why he would lie to her for sure. She should have approached all info from an unbiased point of view.

This is one of the places where Cat's rationality really got the best of her-- LF's ploys are inherently irrational. The fact she couldn't find a rational reason why he'd lie is what trips her up.

But she didn't rationalize all the information, or didn't want to accept that she was wrong after seeing her crazy/supremely unreliable sister and hearing Tyrion's side of the story.

Trust me, I"m not saying Cat is irrational. I already posted what I think her relatively minor flaws are and the trusting LF too much one goes hand in hand with her stubbornness. But hell, with all the stuff Cat has been through that's nitpicky compared to dissecting nearly every other character.

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But she didn't rationalize all the information, or didn't want to accept that she was wrong after seeing her crazy/supremely unreliable sister and hearing Tyrion's side of the story.

Why would anyone accept that he/she has been wrong just because the accused guy denies it without any proof?

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But she didn't rationalize all the information, or didn't want to accept that she was wrong after seeing her crazy/supremely unreliable sister and hearing Tyrion's side of the story.

She does come to strongly doubt LF's story once Tyrion shows her the reason why his sending the dagger and betting against Jaime wouldn't make sense. But unlike with Varys, her history with LF causes a kind a cognitive dissonance about it. She knows more about LF than she does of Varys, and based on that experience, she can see no reason why he'd have lied so plainly or what he'd gain from it.

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I'm glad to know there are people who believe that Catelyn was one of the smartest character in the books. I think the same, she made bad decisions under complicated circumstances. How much she could change since Thoros awakened her?


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You have gone to a good effort,and I agree in the most part, she is indeed smart. But it all is undone by releasing the kings layer, and morally undone by 'it should have been you".

The Tullys just tend to piss me off with their stiff necked pride and lack of perspective. A very self centered family.

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After so much senseless Cat bashing that I see from certain sides it's nice to see a Cat appreciation thread for once. Another pleasant surprise is that I don't see a lot of negativity in the responses. Let's hope it stays that way.


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You have gone to a good effort,and I agree in the most part, she is indeed smart. But it all is undone by releasing the kings layer, and morally and undone by 'it should have been you".

The Tullys just tend to piss me off with their stiff necked pride and lack of perspective. A very self centered family.

So, you subscribe to the Melisandre school of ethical thought?

Also, the Tully thing makes no sense. Cat's the one who thought to put the fighting aside and come to a Great Council on the matter. That's rather "big picture" imo. Also, in terms of Tully self-centeredness, Edmure's like the one noble we see who actually tries actively protecting his smallfolk.

Cat should not have a hatred of Jon.It not his fault he was born

I can tell by your other comments that you didn't mean this in a hate-mongering or dismissive capacity or anything.

Though I think whether she "hates" Jon is debatable, I actually agree with your general sentiment-- this is a pretty irrational transference of emotion on her part. I think that it's clear Jon is the major exception to her otherwise strong record of being sensible and measured about things. I think this is her one big concession to emotion over reason and rectitude. ETA: prior to witnessing the RW, I mean.

I think what's a shame is that this issue stands out so much that even though it's in reality the exception to the rule, it's seen as the rule.

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So, you subscribe to the Melisandre school of ethical thought?

Also, the Tully thing makes no sense. Cat's the one who thought to put the fighting aside and come to a Great Council on the matter. That's rather "big picture" imo. Also, in terms of Tully self-centeredness, Edmure's like the one noble we see who actually tries actively protecting his smallfolk.

I can tell by your other comments that you didn't mean this in a hate-mongering or dismissive capacity or anything.

Though I think whether she "hates" Jon is debatable, I actually agree with your general sentiment-- this is a pretty irrational transference of emotion on her part. I think that it's clear Jon is the major exception to her otherwise strong record of being sensible and measured about things. I think this is her one big concession to emotion over reason and rectitude. ETA: prior to witnessing the RW, I mean.

I think what's a shame is that this issue stands out so much that even though it's in reality the exception to the rule, it's seen as the rule.

i think that it was not that much tranferance about Ned's presumed indiscression, but something deeper and on going. It is something Ned never, talked about, never intimated with her and he kept her at arms length about it. Her children also took to him, treating him as a full brother and the fact that he looks like Ned's son and distinctly northern, while she is from the south. Something her entire family shared in and she was left out. That's got to be hard.

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I agree with most of what's said in the OP (except the WW quote, that seems like meta-foreshadowing by GRRM rather than anything else).



She always struck me as someone who was savvy enough and diplomatic enough that, had enough people listened to her; things could have gone much better for the North during the war.



Her one, big, mistake that ultimately spelled downfall for their cause was the freeing of Jaime Lannister. Without this the Karstark's loyalty wouldn't have been compromised and Roose Bolton may not have become so bold.


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i think that it was not that much tranferance about Ned's presumed indiscression, but something deeper and on going. It is something Ned never, talked about, never intimated with her and he kept her at arms length about it. Her children also took to him, treating him as a full brother and the fact that he looks like Ned's son and distinctly northern, while she is from the south. Something her entire family shared in and she was left out. That's got to be hard.

oh, I don't disagree with your point. By "transference" I meant the way she found herself loving Ned despite his being the allegedly guilty part and her inability to feel warmth toward Jon, though knowing he's innocent and causing her some shame. She confesses to herself (it's Cat II I think in aGoT) that she couldn't forgive Ned, but loved him anyway, and that the emotional restriction was passed onto Jon, whom she tried to love but couldn't.

On a personal level, I'm not bothered about it or anything overall. I think it's human, very understandable, and I completely forgive her for it.

Speaking to the rational side of this though (so not the issue of whether she ought to have loved him because he's a child in her home or anything), I think keeping him at arm's length was perhaps strategically unsound. Her fears that her own children's inheritance could be at risk by his acceptance in the family could have perhaps been undermined by her being more accepting of him, even if her heart wasn't in it. Had Jon turned out differently, making it clear that she didn't want him there and wasn't a Stark could have backfired. Would Theon have gone back to Winterfell as a conqueror if he wasn't constantly reminded that it could never be his?

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Good post OP, that must've been quite a bit of work!



I'm not a massive Catelyn fan, but I very much agree that she's an intelligent woman. I can easily forgive many of her 'mistakes' as well (let's not forget that she's a grieving wife and mother) or don't even see them as mistakes on her part (e.g. Littlefinger fooled everyone, and she had more reason to trust him than most).



The one thing I find very hard to forgive is her treatment of Jon, which is made all the more unreasonable exactly because she's an intelligent woman. I won't get into that in here though; I think you've done a great job of pointing out some of the smart and good stuff she did, many of which are all too easily forgotten :)


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