The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully

[HexMachina]

This. She was able to form liaisons and she knew the importance of those liaisons, it's not her fault that Robb wasn't thinking with his head.

As someone who is proud to be her hater I have to say that the fact that someone hates her doesn't mean that (s)he can't understand if she was smart or not. Cat belongs to smart people category but in the average or high average scale (100-119). She is not in the superior+ scale(120-<).

:kiss: :grouphug: See, you are making progress :D

We shall have you praising her name to the stars next year my dear friend, just wait and see :grouphug: :kiss:

:p

[Peter George Stewart]

Again, I think a lot of people are missing one of GRRM's main points. You can be smart, good, and do good things, but those good things can still lead to bad things happening down the road.

In GRRM's world, just as you can't expect good to always win just because it's good, there is absolutely no guarantee that a good thing done won't have bad unforeseen consequences, or that a bad thing done may not have good consequences down the line.

Or another way of putting it: you can't automatically read off the likely consequences of an act from its smartness, goodness, etc. On the whole, yes, good actions lead to good consequences, but it's not invariable or infallible - life often returns you (or brings upon others) unforeseen and unexpected consequences to your actions, that don't have the same value as those actions, or their intended value.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

:kiss: :grouphug: See, you are making progress :D

We shall have you praising her name to the stars next year my dear friend, just wait and see :grouphug: :kiss:

:P

People are starting attacking :box: before listening. Mediocre might was the wrong word, average is the right one. She is smart sure but is she a genius? No. I thought that I was clear the first time.

As for the second part that will never happen. :p

[Mulled Wino]

She does come to strongly doubt LF's story once Tyrion shows her the reason why his sending the dagger and betting against Jaime wouldn't make sense. But unlike with Varys, her history with LF causes a kind a cognitive dissonance about it. She knows more about LF than she does of Varys, and based on that experience, she can see no reason why he'd have lied so plainly or what he'd gain from it.

I do, because she knows how "clever" LF is..

[Mulled Wino]

Why would anyone accept that he/she has been wrong just because the accused guy denies it without any proof?

Lol. She has no proof that he did it anyway. Tyrions story check out, hers doesn't

[David Selig]

Lol. She has no proof that he did it anyway. Tyrions story check out, hers doesn't

Checks out how? Because he says so?

[HexMachina]

People are starting attacking :box: before listening. Mediocre might was the wrong word, average is the right one. She is smart sure but is she a genius? No. I thought that I was clear the first time.

As for the second part that will never happen. :p

I'm just having fun with you :lol: :p I still hold she is one of the smartest females in the series, but we can agree to disagree, I don't want to argue it really

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

As someone who is proud to be her hater I have to say that the fact that someone hates her doesn't mean that (s)he can't understand if she was smart or not. Cat belongs to smart people category but in the average or high average scale (100-119). She is not in the superior+ scale(120-<).

Meh. All I'll say is that she's often smarter than those around her. Obviously Littlefinger and Varys are the exceptions, but I did feel frustrated on her behalf when she's trying to advise Robb and his bannermen.

[David Selig]

How the hell do you reach an IQ figure from reading someone's PoV chapters? I am really curious.

[butterbumps!]

People are starting attacking :box: before listening. Mediocre might was the wrong word, average is the right one. She is smart sure but is she a genius? No. I thought that I was clear the first time.

As for the second part that will never happen. :P

No one accused her of being a genius, though, so pointing out that she's not a genius doesn't really accomplish much. That being said, she is presented as a, if not the, voice of reason for most of her on-screen time. I think that was the OP's basic point.

I do, because she knows how "clever" LF is..

If I'm not mistaken, we're not in tremendous disagreement. It's just a matter of whether Cat "blindly trusts" LF or not, right? I don't think noting he's clever is really a reason to assume he's lying. Typically, a clever person doesn't lie for shits and giggles; they lie because it benefits them in some way. I actually think his cleverness makes it that much more baffling.

I think the degree of "blindness" about this is addressed in aGoT, and then during her meeting with Jaime:

Tyrion IV

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, “Why would Petyr lie to me?”

“Why does a bear shit in the woods?” he demanded. “Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people.”

She's questioning what his motive and gain would be.

This isn't from her own POV, so we don't get the full machinations. But we know from her earlier POV in KL that she doesn't fully trust LF, but sees Tyrion, a Lannister, as having more reason to lie than LF would. While in the Eyrie in her next chapter, she says that she's certain the Lannisters have cooked something up, likely together; she think they're all part of some conspiracy. And she continues to think Tyrion is trying to play her after the quote I excerpted, because Tyrion informs her that LF spread tales of their having had sex. We know that lie started with LF, but it looks like she thinks this is lie from Tyrion intended to undermine LF's accusation.

aCoK, Cat VII

Tyrion Lannister had said much the same thing as they rode through the Mountains of the Moon, Catelyn remembered. She had refused to believe him. Petyr had sworn otherwise, Petyr who had been almost a brother, Petyr who loved her so much he fought a duel for her hand . . . and yet if Jaime and Tyrion told the same tale, what did that mean? The brothers had not seen each other since departing Winterfell more than a year ago. “Are you trying to deceive me?” Somewhere there was a trap here.

She's right that there is a trap, only that she misplaces the source of the trap as the Lannisters rather than LF. Because what use would LF have to lie about this? I'm trying to say that I don't think this is blind faith so much as a case where she believes the Lannisters have significantly more reason to lie to her than LF would.

[Mulled Wino]

If I'm not mistaken, we're not in tremendous disagreement. It's just a matter of whether Cat "blindly trusts" LF or not, right? I don't think noting he's clever is really a reason to assume he's lying. Typically, a clever person doesn't lie for shits and giggles; they lie because it benefits them in some way. I actually think his cleverness makes it that much more baffling.

I think the degree of "blindness" about this is addressed in aGoT, and then during her meeting with Jaime:

Tyrion IV

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, “Why would Petyr lie to me?”

“Why does a bear shit in the woods?” he demanded. “Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people.”

She's questioning what his motive and gain would be.

This isn't from her own POV, so we don't get the full machinations. But we know from her earlier POV in KL that she doesn't fully trust LF, but sees Tyrion, a Lannister, as having more reason to lie than LF would. While in the Eyrie in her next chapter, she says that she's certain the Lannisters have cooked something up, likely together; she think they're all part of some conspiracy. And she continues to think Tyrion is trying to play her after the quote I excerpted, because Tyrion informs her that LF spread tales of their having had sex. We know that lie started with LF, but it looks like she thinks this is lie from Tyrion intended to undermine LF's accusation.

aCoK, Cat VII

Tyrion Lannister had said much the same thing as they rode through the Mountains of the Moon, Catelyn remembered. She had refused to believe him. Petyr had sworn otherwise, Petyr who had been almost a brother, Petyr who loved her so much he fought a duel for her hand . . . and yet if Jaime and Tyrion told the same tale, what did that mean? The brothers had not seen each other since departing Winterfell more than a year ago. “Are you trying to deceive me?” Somewhere there was a trap here.

She's right that there is a trap, only that she misplaces the source of the trap as the Lannisters rather than LF. Because what use would LF have to lie about this? I'm trying to say that I don't think this is blind faith so much as a case where she believes the Lannisters have significantly more reason to lie to her than LF would.

We aren't far off to be sure, as you are the reason I've converted to liking Cat as a character. I read just her chapters and understand where the Cat soldiers are coming from a lot more than before (it's kind of weird being a Cat fan now btw).

I think she put waaaay too much faith in him, perhaps not "blindly trusting" but she misjudges him severely. Those quotes prove my point IMO, it's right in front of her and she refuses to recognize.

It's funny because I respect Cat's character a lot now, but still have to battle it out when I bring up anything relating to a flaw she might have. at least I didn't get too much pushback on her being stubborn.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Mistakes are not done necessarilly out of stupidity or incompetence. In fact usually things are complicated, and doing the right thing is like solving a difficult puzzle that you are not trained to do. The fact that you might have reasons to do a mistake does not stop it for being a mistake.

Having foresight and the right insticts and decision making is paramount. At such we should neither codemn characters like Catelyn, Ned and others too much without aknowledging the difficulty of their choices from their perspective but also should not really try to argue against all of their mistakes being non mistakes.

With LF, Catelyn herself has a line about Robert after 15 years not being trustworthy. The history of LF and Starks Catelyn was not the best either. So it is not unreasonable to wonder should I really trust him, how much should I trust his views and how much should I act uppon it? It is understandable for someone to act differently and to make a mistake.

Similiarly with Tyrion, capturing Tyrion at the crossroad Inn does not succeed as deescalating the situation with the Lannisters and indeed if the goal as some have argued would be to not let them learn that Catelyn was at the inn, it fails.

Then there is the issue with Theon. Robb might think that he can trust the person who he consider a great friend, like a brother, but he is mistaken and Catelyn is right.

Catelyn is correct to choose against Greatjon but the scary Roose Bolton with cold cunning, that like Karkstark Catelyn is aware that is not among Robb's friends (the meaning is that they smell weakness) is not suitable. Someone like Robert Glover would be a superior choice, Catelyn here displays short term thinking about coping with the next battle, without considering the implications of how trustworthy Roose Bolton might be in comparison to others. Her previous idea of suggesting Theon leading IIRC was also a mistake born of inexpierience and desperation.

And so it goes with many decisions.

You are not going to have sufficient evidence to make clearly and easilly the right decision. Indeed that is a reason why experience makes people wiser and someone who is inexperienced at handling certain situations would be over their head. Even with limited informations having the wrong insticts, not picking on the significance of aspects of information you know and making wrong decisions is fair game to be judged. It is not fair game to be overtly judgemental, just we can call a mistake a mistake, because it is what you should expect from putting most normal people in Catelyn's position. Put most people (or even those who are above average in intelligence) in the midst of a political conspiracy and war and they might have some moments of wisdom but also plenty mistakes.

[butterbumps!]

We aren't far off to be sure, as you are the reason I've converted to liking Cat as a character. I read just her chapters and understand where the Cat soldiers are coming from a lot more than before (it's kind of weird being a Cat fan now btw).

I think she put waaaay too much faith in him, perhaps not "blindly trusting" but she misjudges him severely. Those quotes prove my point IMO, it's right in front of her and she refuses to recognize.

It's funny because I respect Cat's character a lot now, but still have to battle it out when I bring up anything relating to a flaw she might have. at least I didn't get too much pushback on her being stubborn.

lol, yea, that was after the Catnap thread. I think this particular facet is such a minor point I hadn't intended to make a thing of it or anything.

I think you're right in that these quotes show that she's prioritizing LF's account over the Lannisters'; that I'd agreed with all along. But on the issue of "blind faith," I understood it as believing in LF's inherent truthfulness and loyalty to her, and it's that facet I've been disagreeing with. By extension, I'm not sure if her refusal to take the Lannisters at their word is "stubbornness," so much as cognitive dissonance (because it really makes no sense for LF to have lied about this), and being astute enough to know there is a trap in this somewhere and being cautious about believing the side she assumes to be enemies too hastily. I read these quotes as her trying to figure out who gains what from lying about this (but I'm not taking much issue with "stubbornness"). And I agree, she misjudges LF.

So maybe you weren't using "blind faith" the way I thought you were, and we did agree on this after all.

[Mulled Wino]

lol, yea, that was after the Catnap thread. I think this particular facet is such a minor point I hadn't intended to make a thing of it or anything.

I think you're right in that these quotes show that she's prioritizing LF's account over the Lannisters'; that I'd agreed with all along. But on the issue of "blind faith," I understood it as believing in LF's inherent truthfulness and loyalty to her, and it's that facet I've been disagreeing with. By extension, I'm not sure if her refusal to take the Lannisters at their word is "stubbornness," so much as cognitive dissonance (because it really makes no sense for LF to have lied about this), and being astute enough to know there is a trap in this somewhere and being cautious about believing the side she assumes to be enemies too hastily. I read these quotes as her trying to figure out who gains what from lying about this (but I'm not taking much issue with "stubbornness"). And I agree, she misjudges LF.

So maybe you weren't using "blind faith" the way I thought you were, and we did agree on this after all.

Blind faith may have been an overstatement.

I gave some examples of her other faults IMO earlier. 1 was the LF thing, another was regarding her ability to take good advice, sorry, I can't seem to put a coherent post right now because my kids are interrupting me every third word or so!

[Mulled Wino]

Mistakes are not done necessarilly out of stupidity or incompetence. In fact usually things are complicated, and doing the right thing is like solving a difficult puzzle that you are not trained to do. The fact that you might have reasons to do a mistake does not stop it for being a mistake.

Having foresight and the right insticts and decision making is paramount. At such we should neither codemn characters like Catelyn, Ned and others too much without aknowledging the difficulty of their choices from their perspective but also should not really try to argue against all of their mistakes being non mistakes.

With LF, Catelyn herself has a line about Robert after 15 years not being trustworthy. The history of LF and Starks Catelyn was not the best either. So it is not unreasonable to wonder should I really trust him, how much should I trust his views and how much should I act uppon it? It is understandable for someone to act differently and to make a mistake.

Similiarly with Tyrion, capturing Tyrion at the crossroad Inn does not succeed as deescalating the situation with the Lannisters and indeed if the goal as some have argued would be to not let them learn that Catelyn was at the inn, it fails.

Then there is the issue with Theon. Robb might think that he can trust the person who he consider a great friend, like a brother, but he is mistaken and Catelyn is right.

Catelyn is correct to choose against Greatjon but the scary Roose Bolton with cold cunning, that like Karkstark Catelyn is aware that is not among Robb's friends (the meaning is that they smell weakness) is not suitable. Someone like Robert Glover would be a superior choice, Catelyn here displays short term thinking about coping with the next battle, without considering the implications of how trustworthy Roose Bolton might be in comparison to others. Her previous idea of suggesting Theon leading IIRC was also a mistake born of inexpierience and desperation.

And so it goes with many decisions.

You are not going to have sufficient evidence to make clearly and easilly the right decision. Indeed that is a reason why experience makes people wiser and someone who is inexperienced at handling certain situations would be over their head. Even with limited informations having the wrong insticts, not picking on the significance of aspects of information you know and making wrong decisions is fair game to be judged. It is not fair game to be overtly judgemental, just we can call a mistake a mistake, because it is what you should expect from putting most normal people in Catelyn's position. Put most people (or even those who are above average in intelligence) in the midst of a political conspiracy and war and they might have some moments of wisdom but also plenty mistakes.

Excellent post,

I think BB's consistent defense of Cat is not whether she makes mistakes, but what are the factors that lead up to her decision making that SHE is aware of. As the reader, we obviously know much more. It's very difficult to argue against Cat's logic and judgement in the vast majority of cases when you read her character from that perspective. I know, because I tried but then just read her chapters and those related to her in GoT.

[Mulled Wino]

Checks out how? Because he says so?

Because it makes sense, unless you don't believe her own instincts. She knows he was right but refuses to do anything about it

[David Selig]

Both LF lies in this case were really dumb, it is exactly because he is clever Tyrion's claim is hard to believe. Why spread stories that he slept with the wife of one of the most powerful persons in the realm, who is the best buddy of the king and the Hand? It can only hurt him. The dagger lie was insanely dangerous and it didn't end costing LF his life only thanks to Tyrion acting wildly out of character later on.

Because it makes sense, unless you don't believe her own instincts. She knows he was right but refuses to do anything about it

How does it makes sense? "I am too smart to do it" is a very weak excuse, especially coming from a guy who did a whole bunch of dumb stuff which put him in danger throughout the series. Tyrion ordering the murder to save his brother is far more logical than Joff doing it for the very contrived reason Martin came up with.

What do you base "She knows he was right" on. The scene is from Tyrion's PoV, isn't it?

[Batbob45]

Cat means well and would treat Shireen nicely

[Mark Antony]

Cat means well and would treat Shireen nicely

Cat passed the would treat Shireen nicely bar *whew*

(Fuckin Renly)

[Batbob45]

If she found her other sons, she might Shireen to marry one of them