Lee-Sensei Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 They weren't guests technically they were family and besides they didn't eat the bread and salt of their hosts as they provided the food, Then she's a kinslayer. Much better.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 She broke guest rights by committing murder. Sansa wasn't a guest. She was a hostage. It doesn't matter that he's not a true Baratheon or Targaryen. LF isn't an Arryn, yet Lyn Corbray threatening to kill him was seen as breaking guest rights by the Lords Declarant. Sansa was a ward really. She has no other family that she was being held hostage from. Oleanna wasn't a guest, but you are correct, she did technically kinslay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 Sansa was a ward really. She has no other family that she was being held hostage from. Oleanna wasn't a guest, but you are correct, she did technically kinslay. It doesn't make any difference. Sansa was beaten while Robb was still alive. In fact, she was beaten because Robb won a battle. She was a hostage. Olenna was a guest at the wedding. Her home was at Highgarden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sultan of Westeros Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Did Joffrey break guest rights first by beating Sansa? Or for that matter since he is not who he claims to be does guest rights apply to him? Was Mance under guest rights at Winterfell if his identity had been discovered? yes he was, he claimed it himself to Jon Snow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I guess you could argue that since Joffery was a bastard and it technically shouldn't be his "House", maybe there can be no guest rights?Just a stab in the dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Yep yep yep. I think before the series is ended we will see all violators of the guest right get some sort of cosmic punishment, Olenna Tyrell included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkrider Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Reposting from the other thread with the same topic, because there are apparently two of them and I picked the one with fewer posts. The big problem with that is that it's impossible to prove that she's responsible. With Walder Frey, everyone knows who committed the crime. With Olenna, you don't just have to prove she did it, but also that Tyrion didn't do it, which would be difficult, seeing as how there was already a trial and a confession, of sorts. Karmic punishment, on the other hand.... Well, it's possible. Also, I can't remember if the Tyrells provided the food for the wedding or not. If they did, then they didn't eat of their host's bread and salt, technically aren't under guest right, and technically didn't break it, although they would be horrific rule-mongerers. Then she's a kinslayer. Much better. :)I think that kinslaying only applies to blood relations, not to families you've married into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Joffrey was a little shit and Olenna Tyrell is awesome, but she did break guest rights and that's and that's a serious crime in their world. Does anyone else think she needs to die for it? Guest right being a serious crime is a bit hazy. It's not a crime (imo) in the sense that there are laws against it that have been enacted by the government(s) of the realm(s). It's more like a moral transgression - probably the most serious moral transgression there is. Someone who sins in this way is more than a mere criminal, they are a depraved and evil person. That's the province of the gods. So in a sense, anyone being tried by a court and executed is not enough punishment for such a crime. They need to suffer in ways that only the gods can determine. Murder is definitely a crime that is covered by the laws of men, though. Olenna is vulnerable on that count too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new djinn Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The Ironborn will set the Reach on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 Reposting from the other thread with the same topic, because there are apparently two of them and I picked the one with fewer posts. The big problem with that is that it's impossible to prove that she's responsible. With Walder Frey, everyone knows who committed the crime. With Olenna, you don't just have to prove she did it, but also that Tyrion didn't do it, which would be difficult, seeing as how there was already a trial and a confession, of sorts. Karmic punishment, on the other hand.... Well, it's possible. Also, I can't remember if the Tyrells provided the food for the wedding or not. If they did, then they didn't eat of their host's bread and salt, technically aren't under guest right, and technically didn't break it, although they would be horrific rule-mongerers. I think that kinslaying only applies to blood relations, not to families you've married into. Someone said that she wasn't a Kinslayer because they're family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 As much as I like Olenna I believe that she and everyone else who was involved to PW have to be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund GiantsMANE Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 She broke guest rights by committing murder. Sansa wasn't a guest. She was a hostage. It doesn't matter that he's not a true Baratheon or Targaryen. LF isn't an Arryn, yet Lyn Corbray threatening to kill him was seen as breaking guest rights by the Lords Declarant. LF was lord protector of the vale by marriage though.I'd imagine guest right was extended as an assurance that they would treat peacefully given the strange circumstances, which is why the potential violation is even mentioned. I think that the truth of Joff's parentage and the truth of Cersei's crimes may retroactively nullify the ability to offer guest right because he wouldn't be the king and she wouldn't be the queen if not for all of the lying and killing. In the eyes of the gods the Lannister/Baratheons may not be viewed as true hosts because the king is the product of incest and not the rightful claimant to the throne. I think that LF would be painted with a similar brush in the eyes of the gods. He did marry Lady Arryn, but he also killed her to take control of her seat and has committed or pulled the strings on numerous ill deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 LF was lord protector of the vale by marriage though.I'd imagine guest right was extended as an assurance that they would treat peacefully given the strange circumstances, which is why the potential violation is even mentioned. I think that the truth of Joff's parentage and the truth of Cersei's crimes may retroactively nullify the ability to offer guest right because he wouldn't be the king and she wouldn't be the queen if not for all of the lying and killing. In the eyes of the gods the Lannister/Baratheons may not be viewed as true hosts because the king is the product of incest and not the rightful claimant to the throne. I think that LF would be painted with a similar brush in the eyes of the gods. He did marry Lady Arryn, but he also killed her to take control of her seat and has committed or pulled the strings on numerous ill deeds. The Eyrie belongs to the Arryns. LF was not an Arryn. The Red Keep belongs to the Targaryens or Baratheons. Joffrey was neither. I don't think that's how it works. No matter what they've done, LF and the Lannisters were protected by guest rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Condoning her crimes while frowning upon Walder Frey's is actually a tad hypocritical. Oh GRRM how I love thee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I'd say that Olenna saved the Kingdom. She got rid of a useless and cruel king who would sooner rather then later have thrown the Westeros into another rebellion to the detriment of both Tyrells and Lannisters. Tywin should have disposed this little shite and appointed his brother Tommen instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I think it was Cersei who killed Joffrey before the Tyrells could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The Father will judge her justly, never fear. Olenna and Jaime, kingslayers with justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The Eyrie belongs to the Arryns. LF was not an Arryn. The Red Keep belongs to the Targaryens or Baratheons. Joffrey was neither. I don't think that's how it works. No matter what they've done, LF and the Lannisters were protected by guest rights. This. So very much. Westeros hates rules-lawyering. Except when done to reciprocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maid So Fair Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Has Joffrey broken the guest right by imprisoning and killing Ned? How about Jaime by attacking him in the streets? I'm not sure the Tyrells can be seen as guests in King's Landing - it is technically their home as much as it is for the Lannisters. They weren't acting in the capacity of guests in any case as they help to pay for and organise the whole thing and are a part of the Small Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Has Joffrey broken the guest right by imprisoning and killing Ned? How about Jaime by attacking him in the streets? Nope. Ned was an inhabitant of the Tower of the Hand. He had his own home in KL and was not a guest of the IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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