Ser Douglas Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Look this is simple at first Barristan showed great integrity and morals. But after reading further in the series many of his regrets were from his confusion between his vows as a knight , and his vows as a white cloak. It intrigued me to see him battle with it as Jamie has. Most of the knights mentioned above (Ser Meryn) are up-jump cutthroats and morally aligned to be more black than grey or ironically white. A character confused is more interesting than a character set in his ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind84 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Can it not be argued that the Kingsguard vows contradict those of a knight? It would be next to impossible to follow the ideals of a knight without breaking the Kingsguard oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 He is not what Sansa would expect from a true knight, but then again, none of Aerys KG were. They all stood by watching Aerys dwindle out of control and unleashing about absolute hell on people. If I am honest, at this point I think that the only "true knight" in this series is Ser Duncan the Tall, and it's heavily implied that he isn't even a knight. Barristan question his own motives and has morals he is not going against easily, which makes him better than most of the knights we've seen in this series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 He is not what Sansa would expect from a true knight, but then again, none of Aerys KG were. They all stood by watching Aerys dwindle out of control and unleashing about absolute hell on people. If I am honest, at this point I think that the only "true knight" in this series is Ser Duncan the Tall, and it's heavily implied that he isn't even a knight. Barristan question his own motives and has morals he is not going against easily, which makes him better than most of the knights we've seen in this series.I think Brienne should equally count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I think Brienne should equally count. True, but I don't think she was knighted either? (It's been a while since I've read the books, so correct me if I'm wrong) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Targaryen II Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 oooooooooooooooooooooooooo call the police shots have been fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Can it not be argued that the Kingsguard vows contradict those of a knight? It would be next to impossible to follow the ideals of a knight without breaking the Kingsguard oath. Of course he can. In which the KG would have to make a moral decision and keep the more moral ones. But they kept the more comfortable ones instead, doing nothing against the atrocities of Aerys. True, but I don't think she was knighted either? (It's been a while since I've read the books, so correct me if I'm wrong) Nope. Never was. Woman and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Douglas Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Of course he can. In which the KG would have to make a moral decision and keep the more moral ones. But they kept the more comfortable ones instead, doing nothing against the atrocities of Aerys. Nope. Never was. Woman and such. Couldn't have put it better it's equal to serving when serving is safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Joker Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 The whole point of a knight is to kill, i agree with the hound...knights are nothing but killers. This whole "they are supposed to be good!" thing is total BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Alienor Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 The whole point of a knight is to kill, i agree with the hound...knights are nothing but killers. This whole "they are supposed to be good!" thing is total BS. There is supposed to be a difference between knights and simple soldiers... but I agree with you. Outside of the songs Sansa (and Jon) have listened to while growing up, that difference seems to be pretty much non-existent, save for the fact that knights have a higher social standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Kings Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 KG/Knights arent paid to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Like I've said in another thread: Arthur Dayne is as guilty of anything people accuse Barristan of and yet doesn't get criticized. Mostly because he died some 15 years prior to the start of the narrative, so criticizing him for his personal flaws seems kinda moot. Unlike certain characters from "back then" (like Aerys) whose actions influenced events that we "experience live" so to speak. So yeah, Arthur Dayne is no more a true knight than Barristan, but he had the "good luck" to die with his reputation intact, and this makes all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The other prince Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I love how so many people are trying to judge Barristan by what they think a knight should be. I would love to hear their version of the vows they think the KG take.I swear to obey the king. As long as I like his orders.I vow to protect the king with my life. Unless I don't think he deserves it.I swear to keep his secrets. Unless I don't feel like it.Does anyone think that is how the the vow goes? I really doubt it. If anyone doesn't think they can uphold these vows for whatever reason then they probably have no business in the KG. Of course he can. In which the KG would have to make a moral decision and keep the more moral ones. But they kept the more comfortable ones instead, doing nothing against the atrocities of Aerys. How so exactly? The whole giving your life for your king seems to be at the absolute core of the KGH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 How so exactly? The whole giving your life for your king seems to be at the absolute core of the KGH.And their oaths as knights? To protect the innocent, uphold justice and all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trad Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 "ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The other prince Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 And their oaths as knights? To protect the innocent, uphold justice and all that? So in a kingdom who decides who is the innocent and what is justice? When you take the KG vows you are pretty much saying your king is going to decide this for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 So in a kingdom who decides who is the innocent and what is justice? When you take the KG vows you are pretty much saying your king is going to decide this for you. Which is hiding behind your cloak. I don't care how many oaths you swear to this or that King, it should be totally obvious to anyone, knight or not, that what Aerys did to Rhaella violates the knightly vows about protecting the innocent. So if you want to argue that the members of the Kingsguard are guards first, knights second then fine, that's exactly the point: By becoming a Kingsguard, you run a very serious risk of ceasing to be knight, in spirit if not in name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I don't remember Barristan running down and killing an innocent boy on orders alone without question or holding a knife to a preteen girl's throat or kidnapping another girl with the purpose of ransoming her. Sandor doesn't have more honor than Barristan. What he has is more self-awareness, which is easier for him because being a cunt is easier to define than being a "true knight." Barristan suffers from what Sansa and Brienne also seem to suffer from and that's what exactly is a true knight in a world where honor isn't as simple as it seems growing up. Barristan is striving for an ideal even though he's been through war and seen atrocious deeds done by those who his oaths swore him to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysler Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'll say this, if I had to pick 10 knights that we have met in the story, he would be one of them. He's is not the pinnacle of Knighthood as the populous believes, but he is among the best in the realm (that's not saying much). I agree. Ser Barristan certainly has made mistakes, but he's one of if not the truest knight we've seen. Personally I see it that he's otherwise honorable and just and exemplary, but he's got this thing with kings. That "Protect but don't judge, listen but don't hear" kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wight Bear Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Which is hiding behind your cloak. I don't care how many oaths you swear to this or that King, it should be totally obvious to anyone, knight or not, that what Aerys did to Rhaella violates the knightly vows about protecting the innocent. So if you want to argue that the members of the Kingsguard are guards first, knights second then fine, that's exactly the point: By becoming a Kingsguard, you run a very serious risk of ceasing to be knight, in spirit if not in name.Well said. I imagine a lot of knights would use "I was just following orders" as an excuse/defense. Barristan certainly has his faults, as does everybody in this series, but anybody saying they wouldn't take him if they had the chance is crazy. Of all the living knights he's probably the closest to a "true knight" that you're going to get. The vows of a knight and a kingsguard seem pretty contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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