Why I think Aegon VI is legit.

[Rhaegar Targaryen II]

As i will keep saying i don't think we shall ever know so just pick a side and stick to it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

If Aegon is real, doesn't mean he'll sit the throne, and if he does, it doesn't mean that he'll still be sitting on the throne in the end. If he's real, that doesn't mean he'll only be around for one more book..

But if he is real and just dies, then his introduction is basically pointless. I suppose you are suggesting that Dany does not believe he is really her nephew, kills him and only afterwards finds out he really was her nephew (oh the humanity). I suppose that might serve a story purpose so it might not be horrible writing (just not great writing). But the story that GRRM seems to be writing is more complicated than that, and making Aegon the mummers dragon as a pawn of Varys to put a fraud of his choosing on the throne is more interesting and nuanced, and thus seems to be better writing.

[Razha]

I think it may come down to pretty twisted dilemma if:

1. Aegon turns out fake butrelatively "good" king

2. Danny is the only legitimate targ claimant but becomes increasingly.... not exactly "evil" but at least ruthless...

most of our beloved characters will allign with one of these two - and the victory of one, even legitimate would not bring happines to these people and to us, the readers..

[The Fourth Head]

Why does nobody consider the possibility that Kevan may still be able to tell the tale? What if Ser Kevan was the intended audience?

For everyone who reads Jon's stabbing scene, argues that he wont die despite being surrounded by daggers, or argue that he wont stay dead, or believe that he isn't on the verge of a state of permanent in compos mentis, I argue that for the sake of consistency, you reserve the right to allow Ser Kevan the same loopholes. If you believe Kevan will die, and Jon will survive in some form, then you are reading virtually identical scenes through very different filters. Both remain conscious to end, both feel cold, both are surrounded by people with daggers. The scenes are remarkably similar.

Qyburn, a few floors below, has just resurrected a poisoned man without a head. Cersei knows it, and I have no doubt Varys knows it. I have no doubt Varys knows that Cersei knows. Why are we to assume that Cersei wont employ Qyburn to "save" the dying Kevan - in what ever form necessary to extract a confession of who it was who stabbed him? In that circumstance the fact that Varys confessed to a dying man he believed would stay dead, that Aegon was real would be exactly the kind of way of validating the claim. Assuming Pycelle received the same treatment, you have two resurrected men who believe Varys, because after all, why would you lie to a dying man? Further, these are the best two men possible to convince of his claim because they are the two who were in KL able to be witnesses to Aegon's original death. If Varys can convert them to becoming believers, then he is in a much better position in terms of swaying Westeros into believing his claim.

You could argue- if he wanted Ser Kevan to tell everyone, why kill him? Why shoot him full of arrows? Well that's the point- if he had just told Kevan- "Aegon is real, I swapped the babies- trust me", he would be far less lively to be believed that if Kevan thought Varys believed he was sharing some secret to a dying man who could tell noone.

We know for a fact now that the myth "dead men tell no tales" is a lie- Dondarrion and Catelyn have already debunked that idea. With Qyburns abilities, why are we to assume that confessing to the dying Kevan is a dead end in terms of what Ser Kevan does with that information?

I accept that this would implicate Varys for the sake of validating Aegon, but at this stage, the Varys persona as a trusted member of the Small Council under Tommen was already finished, ever since he was forced to disappear Tyrion, so it's a hit he can take.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think it may come down to pretty twisted dilemma if:

1. Aegon turns out fake butrelatively "good" king

2. Danny is the only legitimate targ claimant but becomes increasingly.... not exactly "evil" but at least ruthless...

most of our beloved characters will allign with one of these two - and the victory of one, even legitimate would not bring happines to these people and to us, the readers..

The scene were Aegon loses a game of Cyvasse, knocks over the gameboard and orders Tyrion to clean it up seems pretty clearly designed by the offer to give the lie to the belief or bald assertion of Varys and Illyrio that Aegon has a noble character.

[the Scorpion Knight]

The scene were Aegon loses a game of Cyvasse, knocks over the gameboard and orders Tyrion to clean it up seems pretty clearly designed by the offer to give the lie to the belief or bald assertion of Varys and Illyrio that Aegon has a noble character.

view it that way: tyrion behaved like dick the whole time. and a little mentioned fact: if it weren't for aegon tyrion would have drowned in the sorrows.

[jittygatr]

This theory always kills me. He may be fake, he may be real, but the fact that a mother wouldn't be 'in' on saving her baby from near certain death by holding an imposter baby is 100% easily believable. Whether or not Clegane crushed it's head is irrelevant, if they didn't kill the baby and discovered it was a fake, the real Aegon would have been long gone, which was the entire point. It wasn't 'let's fake this kid's death, raise him in secret, and wait 15 years until turmoil is rife throughout the land, and bring him back as a saviour'. It was more 'hey, we should preserve the dynasty and the heir to the heir is the key to that. Let's get him to safety and see what happens'.

I think he is the real heir personally, but even if he isn't, people get waaaaay too analytical over the tiniest details (which is fine, it's fun to do sometimes).

[Cas Stark]

But if he is real and just dies, then his introduction is basically pointless. I suppose you are suggesting that Dany does not believe he is really her nephew, kills him and only afterwards finds out he really was her nephew (oh the humanity). I suppose that might serve a story purpose so it might not be horrible writing (just not great writing). But the story that GRRM seems to be writing is more complicated than that, and making Aegon the mummers dragon as a pawn of Varys to put a fraud of his choosing on the throne is more interesting and nuanced, and thus seems to be better writing.

It's early to say, people read too much into the stupid Cyvasse scene, but I think the purpose of Aegon is that we have someone who was allegedy groomed to be a good ruler who has a chance to rule, and this is what his purpose is, whether he's real or fake is not the reason he's in the story...but that the faction behind him allegedly has a different agenda beyond achieving power/wealth/family honor...because Varys and Illyrio already have power and wealth and have no Houses.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why does nobody consider the possibility that Kevan may still be able to tell the tale? What if Ser Kevan was the intended audience?

Because Varys says that his intentions are to kill him. He's not there to leave him alone to die, his "birds" are around to finish the job.

[Lost Melnibonean]

view it that way: tyrion behaved like dick the whole time. and a little mentioned fact: if it weren't for aegon tyrion would have drowned in the sorrows.

Jon pulled him out. Not Aegon. If I recall correctly the perfect future king froze when the stone man came for him, no?

[Lost Melnibonean]

This theory always kills me. He may be fake, he may be real, but the fact that a mother wouldn't be 'in' on saving her baby from near certain death by holding an imposter baby is 100% easily believable. Whether or not Clegane crushed it's head is irrelevant, if they didn't kill the baby and discovered it was a fake, the real Aegon would have been long gone, which was the entire point. It wasn't 'let's fake this kid's death, raise him in secret, and wait 15 years until turmoil is rife throughout the land, and bring him back as a saviour'. It was more 'hey, we should preserve the dynasty and the heir to the heir is the key to that. Let's get him to safety and see what happens'.

I think he is the real heir personally, but even if he isn't, people get waaaaay too analytical over the tiniest details (which is fine, it's fun to do sometimes).

I don't get hung up over the pisswater switcheroo. But why the heck would the eunuch and the fat man give two shits about preserving the line of the Mad King?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon pulled him out. Not Aegon. If I recall correctly the perfect future king froze when the stone man came for him, no?

Yandry wanted to thrown him to the river again, and Aegon didn't allow it.

And don't be so hard on him. It was like seeing a ghost for the first time of your life.

[Kyotsyu]

Excuse me for repeating this thought in a previous thread about Aegon.

I don't think it matters if he's real or not, to be honest. He'll be annointed and named Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of his name if he successfully wins the throne. He looks the part, he knows the part.

Especially if Danny sides, with him being one of the heads and rider. Can't really accuse a silver-haired and purple-eyed from proclaiming himself Targaryen as long as he has the brawn to back it up.

If he wins, he'll become a Targ king, even if in reality he's a pretender.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yandry wanted to thrown him to the river again, and Aegon didn't allow it.

And don't be so hard on him. It was like seeing a ghost for the first time of your life.

I'm sure I would have soiled my small clothes. But then I'm not holding myself out as Aegon the Conqueror's heir.

[Cas Stark]

I don't get hung up over the pisswater switcheroo. But why the heck would the eunuch and the fat man give two shits about preserving the line of the Mad King?

That's how Varys rolls apparently, same reason he saved Gendry I guess, he likes to have a few spare royals around if he needs them in future plotting.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm sure I would have soiled my small clothes. But then I'm not holding myself out as Aegon the Conqueror's heir.

Well, as Ned said, "Even Aegon did no conquering until after he was weaned". Aegon is yet closer to his mother's breast than to Aegon I.

[The Summer Islander]

To the OP, I sent this to someone in a pm, not 100% mine some of it is from Bastard of Summer

I propose that Aegon is really the son of Rhaegar, as Varys says he is.


Now I choose to believe that Aegon is who Varys says he is simply because I think it can go both ways. Varys could be lying about his identity (He really could be the son of a Blackfyre), and Varys could actually be telling the whole truth this time.


Varys doesn't lie to people some members say. Well I believe that a half-truth is a whole lie (but that's neither here nor there) so for the purpose for this,I will stick to the boards majority belief that he does not lie. But rather he tells them half of the truth.


During Roberts Rebellion the Lannisters didn't join in on the war effort on either side until it was pretty much decided that Robert had won by killing Rhaegar on the Trident. So I propose that while Tywin and his two children were waiting for that news, so that he could declare his loyalty to Robert he had a message sent to Pycelle (who was in KL with Aerys and Jaime). The letter consisted of Tywins plans to join Roberts effort by sacking KL for him as a show of loyalty. Varys of course found this out. I believe this happened three ways with the same result.

1. the message was sent via raven. however one of Varys little birds (they are everywhere) intercepted the message to read it first (put the message back on the bird_ and got back to Varys with the info.

2. the message was sent by Tywin via a child (who was one of Varys little birds, but unknown to Tywin). Tywin thinking the child couldn't read didn't think twice about it.

3. On of Varys little birds just plain old over heard the plot while at Casterly Rock and got the message back to Varys as soon as it was heard. Or as soon as the message arrived in KL to Pycelle one of Varys' little birds got into Pycelle's chambers to read the incoming message as they would do all messages so that Varys could have the into. He's not called the Spider for nothing.


Now it take some time to get from Casterly Rock to KL, so before Tywins army could start to march the message had to go out. The message was sure to arrive before Tywin and co, because one bird or child could arrive faster than a host of hundreds or thousands.


So I propose that while Tywin was marching towards KL both Pycelle and Varys have the info of his impending arrival. Varys acts faster and he alerts Elia of the plot to kill her and her children (Yes it was premeditated. Tywin nurses a grudge like a good scotch. Remember his proposal to marry his daughter to the Mad Kings son? And the following rejection).


So this is where it gets all cracked and potted. Varys uses his secret passage know-how to get to and from Elia and children. He proposed to her that he can save only one of her children, just in case the inevitable demise via Tywins henchmen does take place. There is precedent for this taking place. Remember in the PatQ when Strong helps Aegon II and his remaining children escape from Rhaenrya when she arrives in KL to kill them? Unlike Strong though, he can't help them all escape because people would suspect it was him to help them escape, and he wasn't leaving with the like Strong did. So he tells her there is a woman in Fleabottom with a baby that looks just like new born Aegon. It could have been a simple switch, but if baby Aegon was born with a head full of Targaryen blonde hair, then it's not so simple. But he did find a baby with the same hair and she was willing to sell him the baby. If she's poor then child might have died of hunger or some disease anyway. So she took the gold.

Why would Elia agree to saving one and not the other? Well again there is precedent for this, again PatQ. When Helaena was forced by Blood and Cheese to choose between which child should live and which should die. She chose the youngest, but they killed the oldest anyway.

Elia might have chose to stay (just like Halaena did) and asked Varys to save both the children, but Varys told her it was his way or no way. I don't believe that she would be stupid enough not to try and save at least one of her children. So she chose the one that could be easily swapped and was virtually unrecognizable.

Sacrificing herself and her daughter to save the son. Who could one day avenge his mother, father, and sister


All the while Pycelle tells Aerys to open the gates. Varys after dealing with Elia goes to Aerys and tells him not to. Varys considers Varys info a lil bit, Aerys sides with Pycelle anyway. Tywins army goes on killing spree. Aerys feels duped. Tells Jaime to bring him Tywins head.....you know the rest of the story.........

[Chebyshov]

As i will keep saying i don't think we shall ever know so just pick a side and stick to it.

Or don't pick a side and get comfortable with the ambiguity...which I would argue is maybe what makes him so fascinating. How will the important players react with no guarantee.

I'll also say what I've said for the millionth time; the evidence is inconclusive.