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Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant


Lost Melnibonean

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20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

off was King, so if he ordered something, then his people did what he said. So most likely the head was delivered to KL. And the hint could be that knight's name - Robert Strong.

Tywin was in charge at the time Robb's head became available, and showed zero interest in approving that particular demand (which was made to Pycelle, who doesn't do diddly without Tywin's say-so), and then that conversation ended when Tywin sent Joffrey to bed, against his wishes, with Pycelle jumping to provide the dreamwine.

I don't think Robb's head ever made it out of the Twins.

However, I love @LynnS's idea about Robert's head. That would be so very, very chilling.

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52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

So the flowers that she was holding in her ARMS, are shown in a vision as serpents in her HAIR. Sheesh.

:rolleyes:

It was said there - "Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms." So between her, bringing those flowers to her father, and Then, them finding out, that the flowers are poisonous, some time passed. Thus maybe she gave some of those flowers to her father, and a few has put in her hair, when they had dinner/feast with royal family, and by next morning Arya had a rush on her arms, but not on her head, because skin there was protected by her hair.

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Because 2-metre tall men are so easy to miss in the crowd, apparently.

There's no reason for Sansa to notice all people, that escorted royal family on that trip. And there was no reason for Ned or Arya to describe all of them, or to pay extra attention to the Mountain. Also if he was in the vanguard of their cortege, then he was always far ahead of them, and thus they may have never seen him, during their entire journey to KL. The point is, we don't know ALL people that were there. So there is a possibility that he also was there.

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It might have been Gregor, but if it was him, it definitely wasn't due to his proximity at the time.

Maybe not. Though LF also wasn't there, on that road trip to KL. And he doesn't even wear armor. No? :huh:

20 minutes ago, Therae said:

and then that conversation ended when Tywin sent Joffrey to bed, against his wishes, with Pycelle jumping to provide the dreamwine.

Which gave Joffrey another opportunity to say his order to Pycelle in private, this time without Tywin's interventions.

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25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Horrific!  It makes me laugh and scream at the same time.

I can't decide whether I would rather be in Cersei's POV for that reveal, or someone else witnessing Cersei's reaction...

Either way, pure unadulterated gold. I so hope it's Bob's head. :)

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21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Which gave Joffrey another opportunity to say his order to Pycelle in private, this time without Tywin's interventions.

I don't think it would matter. Pycelle wouldn't have done anything without Tywin's approval, and nobody thought Joffrey's plans for Robb's head were remotely okay.

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6 minutes ago, Therae said:

I can't decide whether I would rather be in Cersei's POV for that reveal, or someone else witnessing Cersei's reaction...

Either way, pure unadulterated gold. I so hope it's Bob's head. :)

Ab

so

lutely! 

:lol:

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5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Ah come on, LM. You know you've got more ideas than that. 

What about Drogon having black blood as well? What is George doing there? Is it a completely separate issue? I am thinking he may want black blood to symbolize magic, not just undead type magic.

Does Mellisandre's black blood confirm that she is undead as well? Obviously something is up with her, but I've never been sold on her as undead. At least not in the same undead sense as Beric and Cat.

For real, it never occurred to me. The association with death is easy, but you might be on to something--dark magic that is connected with death, maybe? 

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

If you think that stone-blood giant is also Petyr, then why is his blood black?

Because he may be Blackfyre? With his great grandfather arriving from Braavos, could be that he was one of Blackfyre descendants. And that's the reason why Varys has chosen LF as his apprentice.

I don't think Petyr is a Blackfyre, nor do I think he has any connection with the Golden Company. I do believe he's going to side with Aegon in the second Dance, but not because of the giant armored in stone deal. 

As I suggested upthread... 

Black blood symbolizes death, because blood appears black after death.

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

In addition to the oft-observed moth-attracted-to-fire symbolism, which really doesn't apply here, the moth symbolizes corruption, decay, and death. 

With that line from the black cells, The George is showing us that LF's corruption and lies will lead to the Ned's death. It's another hint that Petyr was the instigator behind Joffrey's order for the Ned's execution.

Death comes out of Petyr's mouth, like the thick black blood behind the giant's visor. 

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Ok, I agree it could be Petyr. Either him, or the Mountain. Or both.

I do agree that Gregor is the leading candidate, and that Petyr is right behind him. And there are a few others. But I got my dragons on Petyr. 

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42 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As I suggested upthread... 

And I have read that. Though there's one problem -

43 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Black blood symbolizes death, because blood appears black after death.

Petys isn't dead. Yet.

And explanation, that his blood will be black afterwards, when he will be dead, is not a viable explanation for that vision, to prove that he is the giant with black blood. Because - Valar morghulis, eventually everyone will die. Though not all people in that vision were described as having black blood, only one of them.

Also if the girl is Arya, and not Sansa, then why would Arya kill LF? He's not even on her list. And if the girl that will slay a giant is Sansa, then I seriously don't see her killing anyone. She's too weakwilled for that.

49 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I do agree that Gregor is the leading candidate, and that Petyr is right behind him. And there are a few others. But I got my dragons on Petyr. 

Not all giants of the series are the same character. Thus it doesn't mean, that what the GOHH dreamed, and what Bran coma-dreamed, are related at all, not to mention isn't about the same giant. There could be two of them, or even more. Because there are also actual giants in the series. Could be that the savage giant is a real giant, savage because he's a wildling. And snow castle is somewhere at The Wall, or it's Winterfell.

Could even be, that the girl won't actually kill the giant, she may unintentionally cause his death. It could be something metaphorical. Like in Daeron's vision he saw Dunk killing a black dragon, but Baelor's death, even though it was caused by Dunk, he didn't wanted to harm Baelor. So this slayed giant from GOHH's dream, could mean something similar to Daeron's dream - not what it seemed to be.

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

It was said there - "Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms." So between her, bringing those flowers to her father, and Then, them finding out, that the flowers are poisonous, some time passed. Thus maybe she gave some of those flowers to her father, and a few has put in her hair, when they had dinner/feast with royal family, and by next morning Arya had a rush on her arms, but not on her head, because skin there was protected by her hair.

There is a difference between thining creatively and between making things up so that they "fit", sorry - besides, your hypothetical scenario doesn't fit, either, because if Arya was indeed wearing them, we would have a comment how she was lucky that she got the rash only on her arms.

Besides, why would the vision show something so absolutely inconsequential that happened completely off page, as something to characterize Arya? It doesn't make any sense at all.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's no reason for Sansa to notice all people, that escorted royal family on that trip. And there was no reason for Ned or Arya to describe all of them, or to pay extra attention to the Mountain. Also if he was in the vanguard of their cortege, then he was always far ahead of them, and thus they may have never seen him, during their entire journey to KL. The point is, we don't know ALL people that were there. So there is a possibility that he also was there.

If he was important enough to be shown in a vision just because he was there all along, then he should have got a honorable mention, at least in retrospect or something, and with Bran's interest in knights, he wouldn't have escaped his attention (you're forgetting that we have Bran and Jon's PoVs during the royal visit to Winterfell). 

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe not. Though LF also wasn't there, on that road trip to KL. And he doesn't even wear armor. No? :huh:

No, he doesn't wear an armour, but Sandor doesn't have a hound's face, either - i.e., the vision is symbolic and the armour needn't be literal. LF's family sigil is the Titan (just like Sandor's are the hounds), which is a statue/fortess, i.e. stone (and bronze, I know). Furthermore, armour can be used in figurative meaning (e.g. Sansa's courtesy is a lady's armour) and stone is associated with lack of feelings and mercilessness (Lady Stoneheart), so there is a number of explanations why the armour may not be a literal one and still fit Petyr. Plus, that thing that both me and LM have pointed out before - even he is not there yet, LF has had an immense impact on the Starks' lives, the biggest of all the characters involved with them, and a negative one, so he indeed is a giant shadow looming over any other.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

And I have read that. Though there's one problem -

Petys isn't dead. Yet.

But death and destruction is what he spreads, and his psyche under his smooth exterior is deadly and corrupt.

 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also if the girl is Arya, and not Sansa, then why would Arya kill LF? He's not even on her list. And if the girl that will slay a giant is Sansa, then I seriously don't see her killing anyone. She's too weakwilled for that.

I don't see Sansa as weak-willed, for one, and if she arranges the situation, or issues a killing order, she would be the one who killed LF even if her own hands remained clean.

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also if the girl is Arya, and not Sansa, then why would Arya kill LF? He's not even on her list. 

I swear I answered that in the OP. Let me see... No, I really did not. I just argued about the clever twist and the potential foreshadowing. I will have to add that. But right now, the little girl has softball, number 2 has karate, and the big boy has soccer...

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

And if the girl that will slay a giant is Sansa, then I seriously don't see her killing anyone. She's too weakwilled for that.

Debateable, and you don't need a strong will to kill someone - actually the reverse is more likely: you resort to killing when your principles have been eroded by stress, or drugs, or brainwashing. All three probably applied to Lysa, when she murdered Jon Arryn.

Quote

Not all giants of the series are the same character. Thus it doesn't mean, that what the GOHH dreamed, and what Bran coma-dreamed, are related at all, not to mention isn't about the same giant. There could be two of them, or even more. Because there are also actual giants in the series. Could be that the savage giant is a real giant, savage because he's a wildling. And snow castle is somewhere at The Wall, or it's Winterfell.

Could even be, that the girl won't actually kill the giant, she may unintentionally cause his death. It could be something metaphorical. Like in Daeron's vision he saw Dunk killing a black dragon, but Baelor's death, even though it was caused by Dunk, he didn't wanted to harm Baelor. So this slayed giant from GOHH's dream, could mean something similar to Daeron's dream - not what it seemed to be.

Yes to this, pretty much. Multiple giants - and there's probably a real monster out there somewhere.

Also agree to a possible metaphorical killing, which could be as slight as 'let the LF die so the Petyr can be born'. A re-born Petyr is not that unlikely - Peter means stone, and stone is a substance that things hatch out of. Likewise, Stoneheart. It's true what's been said elsewhere - mindless killer zombies get boring very quickly. Either she's destroyed quickly, or she recovers something.

There is a possible path out of stone for these two, and it begins with Petyr's obsessive love for Cat - "Only Cat". He will go to extremes for her. This quote I think is the foreshadowing:

Quote

"... Last night I dreamed of that time Lysa and I got lost while riding back from Seagard. Do you remember? That strange fog came up and we fell behind the rest of the party. Everything was grey, and I could not see a foot past the nose of my horse. We lost the road. The branches of the trees were like long skinny arms reaching out to grab us as we passed. Lysa started to cry, and when I shouted the fog seemed to swallow the sound. But Petyr knew where we were, and he rode back and found us..."

"But there's no one to find me here now, is there? This time I have to find my own way, and it is hard, so hard."

ACOK - CATELYN VII

Lady Stoneheart is lost in a fog, and Petyr is the one who can find her.

Back to Petyr as the Titan: I just read the wiki and it says the titan is bronze from the waist up. Is that legit? It works for my idea of Petyr/Littlefinger as a split personality, but I don't really see it in Arya's description of the Titan.

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OT:

Could someome help my memory if it has been discussed that the shadow "armored like the sun, golden and beautiful" is not Jaime but Joffrey? He also possessed a golden armour (had it for his funeral, haven't checked what he was wearing during the battle of Blackwater), and his involvement in the Starks' lives had a bigger impact than Jaime's.

 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

OT:

Could someome help my memory if it has been discussed that the shadow "armored like the sun, golden and beautiful" is not Jaime but Joffrey? He also possessed a golden armour (had it for his funeral, haven't checked what he was wearing during the battle of Blackwater), and his involvement in the Starks' lives had a bigger impact than Jaime's.

 

I've not seen it discussed before, but it looks valid to me. This 'golden as the sun' quality is hereditary - any descendant of Lann the Clever would qualify (but definitely not Oberyn; the setting sun is a different beast entirely).

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Found Joffrey's Blackwater armour - part-gold:

Boy and horse alike wore gilded mail and enameled crimson plate, with matching golden lions on their heads. The pale sunlight flashed off the golds and reds every time Joff moved. Bright, shining, and empty, Sansa thought.
 

Funny how Sansa's thoughts fit with the imagery of Bran's vision.

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4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Besides, why would the vision show something so absolutely inconsequential that happened completely off page, as something to characterize Arya? It doesn't make any sense at all.

Because Sansa's hairnet is too obvious. So maybe it was a distraction of some sort, while actual purple serpents scene happened off screen, but the flowers were mentioned on pages. So it's not like Author didn't gave to us any information at all, that it may be Arya.

Though it's just a possibility, something that is not absolutely impossible. But I'm not persisting on this theory, I'm just saying that it could be so, while my main idea is that it is Sansa.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But death and destruction is what he spreads, and his psyche under his smooth exterior is deadly and corrupt.

Yeah, Ok. Though originally it wasn't even his plan. He just riped off Varys' plan, altered it a bit, to be beneficial for him, and set things in motion a few years earlier, than in Varys' original plan. But Varys wasn't mentioned not in GOHH's dream, not in Bran's vision, not in Dany's vision, or even in the prophecy of Meggy the Frog. And it's not like Varys is totally innocent in Starks' downfall. Nevertheless his negative influence wasn't shown in any of visions/predictions. So the pure fact, that LF had negative influence over Starks, isn't enough, to be a viable reason, to show him in that vision. It's not like the Hound caused lots of harm to Starks, nevertheless he was there, in that dream.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I don't see Sansa as weak-willed, for one, and if she arranges the situation, or issues a killing order, she would be the one who killed LF even if her own hands remained clean.

She's too stupid to arrange something like that. I think that she's the most unintelligent female character in entire series. Though I'm not the Author, he can use some major plot twist, and reveal that Sansa is some sort of great strategist and a super genius, able to masterfully manipulate people, and make them to abide to her will.

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I swear I answered that in the OP. Let me see... No, I really did not. I just argued about the clever twist and the potential foreshadowing. I will have to add that. But right now, the little girl has softball, number 2 has karate, and the big boy has soccer...

Yes, please do, add that too. What reasoning or hints are there in the books for Arya to want to kill LF. How would she even find out, about his involvement in Stark's downfall? Most likely eventually she will return to Westeros, but it's not like LF is advertising that he is some evil mastermind, and brags about his previous achievements. Sansa knows only a tiny part about his role in what happened, doesn't she? She knows nothing about his planning of Red Wedding. And while she's with him in The Vale, she mostly chatting with him about KL's latest gossips, and eating fruits, not planning how to get out under his control, or how to get rid of him. Furthermore majority of those people, that knew about LF's participation in Ned's capturing, his execution, and Red Wedding, are either already dead, or they are also villains that took part in arranging all of that, so it's not like they will share any of this information with Arya.

Does LSH knows, that it was LF, who planned Red Wedding? If even she doesn't know, they how may Arya find out about any of this?

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Also agree to a possible metaphorical killing, which could be as slight as 'let the LF die so the Petyr can be born'. A re-born Petyr is not that unlikely - Peter means stone, and stone is a substance that things hatch out of. Likewise, Stoneheart. It's true what's been said elsewhere - mindless killer zombies get boring very quickly. Either she's destroyed quickly, or she recovers something.

There is a possible path out of stone for these two, and it begins with Petyr's obsessive love for Cat - "Only Cat". He will go to extremes for her. This quote I think is the foreshadowing:

Maybe LSH will kill Petyr. After Brienne will bring Jaime to her, thru him she may find out about LF's involvement in Red Wedding. And he may also tell her about Lysa's death, and that LF now is Lord of The Vale. So when/if she will go there, to kill LF, she will find out about Sansa. So it could actually be Sansa and LSH together killing LF. If LSH will be executor, then this I see as viable option, how Sansa may be a maid, that will slay a savage giant, though not personally.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

OT:

Could someome help my memory if it has been discussed that the shadow "armored like the sun, golden and beautiful" is not Jaime but Joffrey? He also possessed a golden armour (had it for his funeral, haven't checked what he was wearing during the battle of Blackwater), and his involvement in the Starks' lives had a bigger impact than Jaime's.

 

This is from Bran's coma-dream, Jaime:

"A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone."

And later - "Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful."

So most likely it is Jaime, in both parts of that vision.

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9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She's too stupid to arrange something like that. I think that she's the most unintelligent female character in entire series.

Read Sansa's Feast chapters again... Sansa's not stupid. She's able to work out the games that Littlefinger is playing, both with the granting of the Gates of the Moon to Nestor Royce, and later with Lyn Corbray working for Baelish and his outburst being planned to give Baelish the upper hand in negotiations. Even her arranging of the seats for the meeting with the Lords Declarant shows her smarts. 

Sansa's not stupid... she's naive, and innocent. But now she's losing that naivety and innocence, and is learning the Game of Thrones from one of the best (Littlefinger). 

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