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Arya, not Sansa, is the maid that will slay Littlefinger, the savage giant


Lost Melnibonean

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36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

And if LF didn't set up the Starks against the Lannisters and betray her father, she wouldn't have been in a bad place at all.

Nope, I'm afraid. 

Nor would Arya have been in a bad place? Her father too last I checked. I did not know he was just Sansa's father. I gotta be honest denial is not a great response.

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Oho! Do we have another? Well maybe you're still on the fence, but if we count all the fence sitters as 1/2, then by my count, I would say 6 and 1/2 believe Arya, not Sansa, will slay the Littlefinger, the savage giant. We are all waiting for the seventh! 

I did not say I was a half or a whole, I said she had as much right and that at no point was stated that this was Sansa's role to do. I believe Both Arya and Sansa spent time with the Hound as well. Arya was with Tywin and Sansa with Cersei at one point.

I think both will be associated with his fall but Arya will probably do the deed, she didn't go faceless for nothing. I do find it interesting certain fans often separate the sisters, as if they were not sisters. Same blood flows through their hearts. Someone actually just forgot that Ned had two daughters, both in the same place during the betrayal. Both there at his death. I would not say Arya's journey has been free of Danger or suffering. Can't believe some people would actually forget Neds words about his own daughters. Oh well. I like the theory, I know it's been around awhile, it's good theory, not perfect but none of them are. I think I could probably be counted as a whole if the basic conclusion is Arya sticks LF with the pointy end. I think the complexity of it will involve both sisters though.

 

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

C'mon Ygrain, deep down, you know this theory is true... You can be the seventh!

I'm kinda a half.  Could I be lucky seven? We've discussed this on several threads, so forgive me if I repeat myself.  I think LF's downfall will be something that Sansa and Arya cooperate on (finally) together. 

I'll refer to Hamlet later, but first, I'm gonna go all mythical astronomy on your butt. 

The planet Venus has inspired the creation of many resurrection/rebirth gods across the world.  The Goddess Venus (its namesake) was reborn from Cronus' castrated penis/the blood from his penis.  Osiris had a similar resurrection.  Jesus is also associated with the Morningstar.  Since Azor Ahai is associated with being reborn, bringing dawn, etc, we can also associate him with Venus.  

However, Venus (depending on its location in the sky) isn't just referred to as the Morningstar but also the Evenstar.  As the Evenstar, Venus (and any resurrection god associated with it) is associated with death.  Azor Ahai is seen as a hero in-story, but many readers interpret Azor Ahai as being a dark, evil figure.  How can destroying the moon or killing one's own wife not be interpreted as evil?  Under the Morningstar/Evenstar dichotomy, Azor Ahai Reborn can be interpreted as Azor Ahai reborn spiritually or physically trying to undo bad deeds he'd done, or his SON trying to undo what his father had done.   Remember,  Lightbringer can be interpreted as Azor Ahai's sword or his child with Nissa Nissa, just as the comet that hit the moon can be interpreted as the sun's seed or his child with the moon. 

The comet that hit the moon is thought to have split in two after impact.  Ice was split in two after Ned's death.  As the owner of Ice, Ned plays the role of Azor Ahai/the sun.  The two comets, in this sense, that broke apart are not just Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, but also Sansa and Arya.  

Now, let's look at Hamlet.  Throughout the play, Prince Hamlet plots revenge on his uncle for his father's murder.  Hamlet was based on a real life Danish legend.  In this legend, the king murdered by his brother was called Orwendil, a Germanic name for Venus!  In fact, there are several icons that Hamlet and ASoIaF share: poisoned wine, a poisoned sword duel, brother killing a brother to take his seat, drowning maid (which GRRM adapts into the maid fallen from a tower).

I could go on and on about Hamlet parallels in various characters' archs, but I'll stick with Sansa and Arya. 

Sansa and Arya are parallels to Prince Hamlet, and LF, to Claudius who murdered their father and later becomes their uncle by marriage.  Remember the interpretation that Azor Ahai Reborn is the son (child) undoing the evil father's deeds?  Well, Sansa doesn't just parallel Prince Hamlet (as Ned's daughter) but Azor Ahai Reborn (as Alayne, LF's daughter).  She will be key in bringing LF down,  and perhaps even undoing some of the shady... whatever he was doing as Master of Coin. 

But I said earlier that Sansa and Arya would work together in bringing LF down, and I meant it.  I'm not sure HOW they will work together, but the pun "just Ice" and "Justice" (referring to Seams Puns and Wordplay thread) has me thinking about Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, how those two swords represent Sansa and Arya, and how this fits into the story.  Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail might not ever be reforged to make "just Ice" but Sansa and Arya can work together to bring "justice" to LF.

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5 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

But I said earlier that Sansa and Arya would work together in bringing LF down, and I meant it.  I'm not sure HOW they will work together, but the pun "just Ice" and "Justice" (referring to Seams Puns and Wordplay thread) has me thinking about Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, how those two swords represent Sansa and Arya, and how this fits into the story.  Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail might not ever be reforged to make "just Ice" but Sansa and Arya can work together to bring "justice" to LF.

Radio Westeros proposes that LF had Widow's Wail smuggled from KL (those tapestries) as a part of Stark image to be used when Sansa is revealed, and that Sansa is eventually going to embrace the Stark identity by dealing justice to LF the Stark way, with the Stark sword, albeit reforged.

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6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I'm kinda a half.  Could I be lucky seven? We've discussed this on several threads, so forgive me if I repeat myself.  I think LF's downfall will be something that Sansa and Arya cooperate on (finally) together. 

I'll refer to Hamlet later, but first, I'm gonna go all mythical astronomy on your butt. 

The planet Venus has inspired the creation of many resurrection/rebirth gods across the world.  The Goddess Venus (its namesake) was reborn from Cronus' castrated penis/the blood from his penis.  Osiris had a similar resurrection.  Jesus is also associated with the Morningstar.  Since Azor Ahai is associated with being reborn, bringing dawn, etc, we can also associate him with Venus.  

However, Venus (depending on its location in the sky) isn't just referred to as the Morningstar but also the Evenstar.  As the Evenstar, Venus (and any resurrection god associated with it) is associated with death.  Azor Ahai is seen as a hero in-story, but many readers interpret Azor Ahai as being a dark, evil figure.  How can destroying the moon or killing one's own wife not be interpreted as evil?  Under the Morningstar/Evenstar dichotomy, Azor Ahai Reborn can be interpreted as Azor Ahai reborn spiritually or physically trying to undo bad deeds he'd done, or his SON trying to undo what his father had done.   Remember,  Lightbringer can be interpreted as Azor Ahai's sword or his child with Nissa Nissa, just as the comet that hit the moon can be interpreted as the sun's seed or his child with the moon. 

The comet that hit the moon is thought to have split in two after impact.  Ice was split in two after Ned's death.  As the owner of Ice, Ned plays the role of Azor Ahai/the sun.  The two comets, in this sense, that broke apart are not just Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, but also Sansa and Arya.  

Now, let's look at Hamlet.  Throughout the play, Prince Hamlet plots revenge on his uncle for his father's murder.  Hamlet was based on a real life Danish legend.  In this legend, the king murdered by his brother was called Orwendil, a Germanic name for Venus!  In fact, there are several icons that Hamlet and ASoIaF share: poisoned wine, a poisoned sword duel, brother killing a brother to take his seat, drowning maid (which GRRM adapts into the maid fallen from a tower).

I could go on and on about Hamlet parallels in various characters' archs, but I'll stick with Sansa and Arya. 

Sansa and Arya are parallels to Prince Hamlet, and LF, to Claudius who murdered their father and later becomes their uncle by marriage.  Remember the interpretation that Azor Ahai Reborn is the son (child) undoing the evil father's deeds?  Well, Sansa doesn't just parallel Prince Hamlet (as Ned's daughter) but Azor Ahai Reborn (as Alayne, LF's daughter).  She will be key in bringing LF down,  and perhaps even undoing some of the shady... whatever he was doing as Master of Coin. 

But I said earlier that Sansa and Arya would work together in bringing LF down, and I meant it.  I'm not sure HOW they will work together, but the pun "just Ice" and "Justice" (referring to Seams Puns and Wordplay thread) has me thinking about Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, how those two swords represent Sansa and Arya, and how this fits into the story.  Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail might not ever be reforged to make "just Ice" but Sansa and Arya can work together to bring "justice" to LF.

I was already counting you as a half, but since you started talking about castrating penises, you can be whatever number you want. Yikes! :o

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  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

John the Fiddler says Whitewalls looks like it's made of snow. Are there any other white castles? 

Could New Castle (in White Harbor) be white on the outside?

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Behind the city's thick white walls, the New Castle rose proud and pale upon its hill. Davos could see the domed roof of the Sept of the Snows as well, surmounted by tall statues of the Seven. The Manderlys had brought the Faith north with them when they were driven from the Reach. White Harbor had its godswood too, a brooding tangle of root and branch and stone locked away behind the crumbling black walls of the Wolf's Den, an ancient fortress that served only as a prison now. But for the most part the septons ruled here.

It is described as pale but I'm not sure.

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17 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

Could New Castle (in White Harbor) be white on the outside?

It is described as pale but I'm not sure.

Yes, I think the George often uses pale for white. And note the name of White Harbor's sept. Thanks! Any more white castles? 

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15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes, I think the George often uses pale for white. And note the name of White Harbor's sept. Thanks! Any more white castles? 

Whitegrove? Simply found it in the wiki. Not much info, but it does imply it's white from its name, so who knows.

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  • 5 months later...
On 6/10/2014 at 10:58 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

A little before that Petyr appeared to be a rabbit...

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88292-littlefinger-and-potted-hare/

Thank you for drawing our attention to @The Fourth Head's delightful thread, 'Littlefinger and Potted Hare'!  I wonder if there's an allusion to Littlefinger as 'Peter Rabbit,' the naughty, elusive rabbit who stole into other people's gardens, eating all their goodies, avoiding a number of traps along the way, persisting in this risky behavior although he'd been warned that his father had been turned into a potted pie by the gardener in question (by the way, the children's tale is written by Beatrix Potter, LOL!)

It turns out Petyr Baelish, aka 'Littlefinger', has various similarities to the physically unimposing, yet enormously ambitious and endowed of similarly overweening ego, self-made (and self-named) man Varamyr Sixskins, aka 'Lump', who is also compared to a rabbit, which might help your theory:

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Mance is fallen, the survivors told each other in despairing voices, Mance is taken, Mance is dead. "Harma's dead and Mance is captured, the rest run off and left us," Thistle had claimed, as she was sewing up his wound. "Tormund, the Weeper, Sixskins, all them brave raiders. Where are they now?"

She does not know me, Varamyr realized then, and why should she? Without his beasts he did not look like a great man. I was Varamyr Sixskins, who broke bread with Mance Rayder. He had named himself Varamyr when he was ten. A name fit for a lord, a name for songs, a mighty name, and fearsome. Yet he had run from the crows like a frightened rabbit. The terrible Lord Varamyr had gone craven, but he could not bear that she should know that, so he told the spearwife that his name was Haggon. Afterward he wondered why that name had come to his lips, of all those he might have chosen. I ate his heart and drank his blood, and still he haunts me.

 

 

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Arya was a skilled climber and a fast picker, and she liked to go off by herself. One day she came across a rabbit, purely by happenstance. It was brown and fat, with long ears and a twitchy nose. Rabbits ran faster than cats, but they couldn't climb trees half so well. She whacked it with her stick and grabbed it by its ears, and Yoren stewed it with some mushrooms and wild onions. Arya was given a whole leg, since it was her rabbit. She shared it with Gendry. The rest of them each got a spoonful, even the three in manacles. Jaqen H'ghar thanked her politely for the treat, and Biter licked the grease off his dirty fingers with a blissful look, but Rorge, the noseless one, only laughed and said, "There's a hunter now. Lumpyface Lumpyhead Rabbitkiller."

Arya III, Clash

The repetition of 'Lump' also makes one think of Varamyr.

Despite outwitting accountability and death a number of times (not unlike either Petyr Baelish or Peter Rabbit), Varamyr is finally taken unawares and stabbed by a child, after having stolen a squirrel skin from the child's mother.  Arya is frequently compared to squirrels.

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A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

Varamyr might have been amongst them if only he'd been stronger. The sea was grey and cold and far away, though, and he knew that he would never live to see it. He was nine times dead and dying, and this would be his true death. A squirrel-skin cloak, he remembered, he knifed me for a squirrel-skin cloak.

Its owner had been dead, the back of her head smashed into red pulp flecked with bits of bone, but her cloak looked warm and thick. It was snowing, and Varamyr had lost his own cloaks at the Wall. His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur-lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind. I burned and I died and then I ran, half-mad with pain and terror. The memory still shamed him, but he had not been alone. Others had run as well, hundreds of them, thousands. The battle was lost. The knights had come, invincible in their steel, killing everyone who stayed to fight. It was run or die.

Death was not so easily outrun, however. So when Varamyr came upon the dead woman in the wood, he knelt to strip the cloak from her, and never saw the boy until he burst from hiding to drive the long bone knife into his side and rip the cloak out of his clutching fingers. "His mother," Thistle told him later, after the boy had run off. "It were his mother's cloak, and when he saw you robbing her …"

 

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39 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Thank you for drawing our attention to @The Fourth Head's delightful thread, 'Littlefinger and Potted Hare'!  I wonder if there's an allusion to Littlefinger as 'Peter Rabbit,' the naughty, elusive rabbit who stole into other people's gardens, eating all their goodies, avoiding a number of traps along the way, persisting in this risky behavior although he'd been warned that his father had been turned into a potted pie by the gardener in question (by the way, the children's tale is written by Beatrix Potter, LOL!)

It turns out Petyr Baelish, aka 'Littlefinger', has various similarities to the physically unimposing, yet enormously ambitious and endowed of similarly overweening ego, self-made (and self-named) man Varamyr Sixskins, aka 'Lump', who is also compared to a rabbit, which might help your theory:

 

 

The repetition of 'Lump' also makes one think of Varamyr.

Despite outwitting accountability and death a number of times (not unlike either Petyr Baelish or Peter Rabbit), Varamyr is finally taken unawares and stabbed by a child, after having stolen a squirrel skin from the child's mother.  Arya is frequently compared to squirrels.

 

How do you see Daenerys and her floppy rabbit ears fitting in to this? 

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20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How do you see Daenerys and her floppy rabbit ears fitting in to this? 

The two might not be related. The rabbits in Brown Ben's words of wisdom are not the Peter Rabbit/Bugs Bunny to which Petyr Baelish appears to allude. 

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28 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The two might not be related. The rabbits in Brown Ben's words of wisdom are not the Peter Rabbit/Bugs Bunny to which Petyr Baelish appears to allude. 

Maybe not directly related, more of a discovery of who the Meereenian Joffrey is to the Dany-hare that wriggled away. 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How do you see Daenerys and her floppy rabbit ears fitting in to this? 

The rabbit siblings in Potter's tale were Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail, and Peter...

So I guess Dany could be goody-two-shoes Ms 'Flopsy'...? :P

Seriously, though, the point made about the rabbit ears refers to the social advantage of mimicking those in ones environment in order to fit in, move around unnoticed in that community, and garner political favour -- this is the additional connotation of 'mocking,' i.e. the art of mummery, not merely crafting insults, as it relates to Littlefinger, the mockingbird.  Think of it as 'singing the tunes you know other people want to hear' by listening and then copying their own songs, since people usually like hearing themselves speak and their own songs sung!  Basically, the art of diplomacy and manipulation, which is not necessarily a bad thing.  For example, the Stark children (among whom I include Jon) have all undergone this kind of sorely-needed eye-opening (pardon the pun ;)) diplomatic training, if you will, each in his or her own way, which equips them going forward into Winter to better deal with foes such as Littlefinger.  How does one best defeat the mockingbird?  By playing and beating him at his own game:  what I've termed 'counter-mocking' the mocker!

By the way, elsewhere in the text, learning the art of 'masterful mummery' has been compared to 'bagging a hare in a snare' by Catelyn (very ironic, considering she more than any other person was taken in by Littlefinger's traps, and with the most devastating consequences, and not vice versa -- in effect, she was bagged in the hare's snare!):
 

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn II

The third was, Mother have mercy, Robb, what have you done?

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king. Catelyn saw no choice but to take Jeyne Westerling's hands. "I have a new daughter," she said, more stiffly than she'd intended. She kissed the terrified girl on both cheeks. "Be welcome to our hall and hearth."

"Thank you, my lady. I shall be a good and true wife to Robb, I swear. And as wise a queen as I can."

If you meant if I believe Arya will kill Dany, I don't think so.  Although Dany wears the rabbit ears, she's not really a rabbit underneath the disguise; she's a dragon, obviously!  Littlefinger and Varamyr, however, are implied to be rabbits underneath their disguises.  Arya makes the point that hares are faster than cats (translation: Littlefinger is harder to catch than Lannisters!), although they can't climb trees, which gives a squirrel such as Arya an advantage in a 'wood'.

Maybe we should consult @Pain killer Jane -- I know she's given the symbolism of rabbits and hares more generally a lot of thought!  :)

I would also like to share a wonderful post by @Mithras in which he suggests, quoting Hemingway (love it!), that Littlefinger has been made vulnerable by his passion for Sansa, in the same way that a hare can be more easily approached and captured when it's mating!

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This is a good symbolism. The hares share the high libido of the rabbits. They are more vulnerable while mating.

 

 

 

 

Just then, while he was watching all of the country that was visible, he saw the gypsy coming through the rocks to the left. He was walking with a loose, high-hipped, sloppy swing, his carbine was slung on his back, his brown face was grinning and he carried two big hares, one in each hand. He carried them by the legs, heads swinging.

 

 

“Hola, Roberto,” he called cheerfully.

 

 

Robert Jordan put his hand to his mouth, and the gypsy looked startled. He slid over behind the rocks to where Robert Jordan was crouched beside the brush-shielded automatic rifle. He crouched down and laid the hares in the snow. Robert Jordan looked up at him.

 

“You hijo de la gran puta!” he said softly. “Where the obscenity have you been?”

 

“I tracked them,” the gypsy said. “I got them both. They had made love in the snow.”

 

 

 

“For Whom the Bell Tolls” By Ernest Hemingway

 

 

 

 

Rafael catches two hares while they are mating on the snow. I think LF is more vulnerable with Sansa. He has an irresistible sexual attraction to her which makes him let his guard down. I think he will try to rape her and Sansa will slay him by cutting his littlefinger.

 

Or, alternatively, Arya the huntress will snare two mating hares for the price of one (Littlefinger and Sansa -- who is getting so adept at wearing her bunny ears in order to please Littlefinger, she can no longer differentiate her identity from his)...

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A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him."

"Music soothes him," she corrected, "the high harp especially. It's singing he can't abide, since Marillion killed his mother." Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not...

 

ETA:  There may also be a pun on 'hares' with 'hairs' and 'heirs' (I can't recall if we identified that one on @Seams wordplay thread).   

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On 1/7/2017 at 5:55 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Sansa and Arya would work together in bringing LF down, and I meant it.  I'm not sure HOW they will work together, but the pun "just Ice" and "Justice" (referring to Seams Puns and Wordplay thread) has me thinking about Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, how those two swords represent Sansa and Arya, and how this fits into the story.  Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail might not ever be reforged to make "just Ice" but Sansa and Arya can work together to bring "justice" to LF.

That's hot.   But Catelyn would want a word.   If her youthful interaction with Finger led to all of this, she'd want to amend the way she deals with him to tie off the series, no?

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Littlefinger will be beautifully offed not by Sansa nor Arya, but by Stoneheart. 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7. 1. 2017 at 8:37 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

C'mon Ygrain, deep down, you know this theory is true... You can be the seventh!

...or perhaps I might. I still believe that narratively, it must be Sansa who brings about LF's downfall. However, watching some show theories which also explored the face changing, it got me thinking: what is the narrative purpose of Arya training with FM? Her interest is piqued when she sees Jacquen change his face; she wants to learn the trick. "Normal" killing can be taught by anyone, and it's not like she's not done it before, so the narrative payback of her stay with the FM should be an ability to change her face.

But, whose face should she wear, and for which kill, to make it narratively important? She might wear Tyrion's to become Cersei's valonquar (and if the word works the same the word for "prince" or "dragon", then it could be "little sister", as well, which happens to be what she is called by Jon, right?). Narratively, though, such development would probably detract from the Lannister debts which need to be paid as well as Jaime's arc.

- Damn them narratives, always get in the way of something. So, is there a way Sansa's and Arya's narratives might form a poweful combo?

I believe there might be - if the two sisters cooperate. If Sansa is the one to learn about LF's treachery and she lures him into a situation where Arya can do the kill, then the prophecy is true for both, with Sansa being the brain and Arya the hand. And, Sansa's own hands remain clean, just as LF taught her. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

...or perhaps I might. I still believe that narratively, it must be Sansa who brings about LF's downfall. However, watching some show theories which also explored the face changing, it got me thinking: what is the narrative purpose of Arya training with FM? Her interest is piqued when she sees Jacquen change his face; she wants to learn the trick. "Normal" killing can be taught by anyone, and it's not like she's not done it before, so the narrative payback of her stay with the FM should be an ability to change her face.

But, whose face should she wear, and for which kill, to make it narratively important? She might wear Tyrion's to become Cersei's valonquar (and if the word works the same the word for "prince" or "dragon", then it could be "little sister", as well, which happens to be what she is called by Jon, right?). Narratively, though, such development would probably detract from the Lannister debts which need to be paid as well as Jaime's arc.

- Damn them narratives, always get in the way of something. So, is there a way Sansa's and Arya's narratives might form a poweful combo?

I believe there might be - if the two sisters cooperate. If Sansa is the one to learn about LF's treachery and she lures him into a situation where Arya can do the kill, then the prophecy is true for both, with Sansa being the brain and Arya the hand. And, Sansa's own hands remain clean, just as LF taught her. 

 

That would be sweet. A little too sweet. We need to toss in some bitterness with all of that lemony lemon imagery. Don't ya think so? 

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