Inconsistent Dornish reactions

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes, KL is a relatively safe place, but it nearly fell to Stannis, so it's not impregnable.

Yes, I know that there are 7 people in the KG. When Rhaegar went to fight Robert, he took Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy, and Jonathor Darry with him. With 3 KG at the TOJ, that left only Jaime Lannister with Aerys, Elia, and the kids. Yes, there were Gold Cloaks protecting the city, but if I were Doran and Oberyn, I would have expected Rhaegar to protect Elia and the kids with the best knights in the kingdom--the KG.

I'm not saying that Doran and Oberyn do blame Rhaegar, I'm saying that it would be reasonable for them to blame him for not putting the best protection around Elia and the kids, but instead putting his best knights around Lyanna.

Agree with you, but as far as I can remember, the gates were closed. They were safe until people from inside let people enter the city.

[nara]

Agree with you, but as far as I can remember, the gates were closed. They were safe until people from inside let people enter the city.

During the Rebellion, they were apparently safe from Tywin until Pycelle convinced the king the open the gates to him. Opening the gates certainly made the sack happen more easily than it should have been. However, I'm not sure if KL would have withstood a joint attack by Tywin and Ned. We'll never really know.

BTW, is the same thing true of Stannis's attack--were the gates open? Or was it falling even though the gates were closed? Don't have the book with me, so I can't look it up.

[Pengwin7]

Actually, my point was why aren't the Martells upset with the Targaryens. If anything, they seem to be fervent proTargaryens.

Everything that happened was because of Rhaegar's running off with Elia. EVERYONE comments on how Rhaegar spurned Elia by riding past her and not naming her queen of love and beauty. Most people who have a brother in law that has cheated on their sister tend to dislike the brother in law. Aerys and Rhaegar were very responsible for just about everything leading up to Elia's death, so why do the Martells seem to be cool with the Targaryens?

Everybody in Dorne knows that Elia & Oberyn were incest buddies. And those Dorners... they love loving. It's all cool.

So, since the incestuous Martells can't cross-marry the incestuous Lannisters (because Jo died)... Princess of Dorne gives a ring-ring to her other gal-pal: Rhaella T.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaella_Targaryen

Late year, 274AC

PoD: "Hey Rhae-Rhae.... did you hear that Jo just bit it?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Yup... whadda ya gon do about E&O continuing to shag?"

PoD: "Was thinking Rhaegar could pull off the pretend-hubby thang?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Oh, fo' sho. Works for me. Just make sure if E has any kids she has to give them Targ names... name the girl after me, the son after Big A".

PoD: "Done and done. So, who is Rhaegar into these days?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Well, he's feeling a bit down on his luck after hooking up with Jo and making that little dwarf. Heartbreaking turn of events, and of course Jo is dead."

PoD: "So what now?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Well, he wants to visit the boy... so he's going to start pretending to be a knight so he can go to tournaments at Lannisport & stuff."

PoD: "Oh, that'll be cool... be a good reason for him to take E so that her and O can do their thang. Those two..."

Rhae-Rhae: "Yeah... he's also obsessed with winning a tournie and naming somebody Queen of Love & Beauty - loves his mom."

PoD: "Oh girl... you don't mean..."

Rhae-Rhae: "I've been thinking about it..."

PoD: "Pssh, snap."

Rhae-Rhae: "Well... I shan't be too hasty about that one... hasty, ya know..."

PoD: "Girl, you know I know."

Rhae-Rhae: "OK, so you let me know when Elia is ready for the big wedding day. I'll let Rhaeg's know about this... he'll love it."

PoD: "TTYL."

Rhae-Rhae: "Buh-bye."

[Wellington]

I think the whole "being snubbed" by Rhaegar emotion is diminished by the fact that Aegon is heir. If Elia and Rhaegar hadn't produced a son and Rhaegar moves on to Lyanna I think there would be a harsher emotion response from Dorne.

[Talking Hodor]

Look at how the Freys reacted when Robb violated their marriage agreement. The fact that the Dornish don't remember Elia being snubbed by Rhaegar is a little odd, but understandable.

The Dornish aren't asshole Freys, they're not as uptight about marriage as the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, and they know that Elia was barren after her second child. Plus they know that the enemy of their enemy is their friend, and right now, the Starks are the biggest enemies of the Lannisters out there.

[tomkat364]

But I see NO harsh response whatsoever. Rhaegar was Elia's husband and the kid's father. He was not there to protect them in any sense of the word. It's not like he saw the Rebellion occurring and said, "hey, better get back to the wife and kids, trouble is a-brewin" He stayed with Lyanna and had to be sought out by Hightower in order to even get him into the fight. Then he goes back to King's Landing, gets his army, tells Jaime that he's entrusting him with his wife and kids, and rides off to his death. Everything that happens comes back to Aerys being crazy and killing a whole bunch of lords/heirs and looking to kill more, which comes back to Rhaegar leaving his wife and kids to steal Lyanna. These were crazy, unjust, and war declaring actions.

Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert because he slept around. All the Lannisters think poorly of Robert because he publicly cheated on Cersei. The Frey's rebel against Robb for breaking an ENGAGEMENT, not even a marriage. Tywin breaks with Aerys at least in part (according to timing and character opinions) due to Aerys not AGREEING to Cersei-Rhaegar. Stannis despises Robert for soiling his marriage bed (and giving him the WRONG castle). Victarion kills his own wife because he can't kill his brother for sleeping with her. One of the old KG (I forget whom) was executed for sleeping with the King's CONSORT.

Yes, people tend to sleep around and have affairs, but marriages seem to be pretty important to people's honor and they take offense to these "snubbings" pretty seriously... except Dorne. They say "let's have another wedding, the last one ended SOOOO well."

[SerArthurHeath]

Rhaegar is dead and the other Targs didn't disrespect anyone. And disrespecting Elia is certainly better than slaughtering her and her kids. And Dorne has Targ blood and Elia's children were half Targ

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The Dornish were annoyed, which is why they weren't heavily involved in the rebellion. They only sent 10,000 spearmen in time for the Trident; clearly they weren't too happy about supporting Aerys and Rhaegar.

[new djinn]

Didn't Tyene or Nym wanted to kill Cersei's kids as retaliation for Oberyn and then were shocked that Cersei planned to kill Trystane? Then again Obara wanted to attack Oldtown, because so.

[Minstral]

Didn't Tyene or Nym wanted to kill Cersei's kids as retaliation for Oberyn and then were shocked that Cersei planned to kill Trystane? Then again Obara wanted to attack Oldtown, because so.

As far as I recall it was Cersei and Jaime that they wanted to kill and then Tywin.

[PrettyPig]

My memory is fuzzy but didn't Oberyn make some snarky comments about Rhaegar to Tyrion during his time in KL? I got the feeling there was definitely some derision there, though not outright loathing. I don't remember Doran saying anything about Rhaegar or Lyanna, which would make sense if Doran was playing a long game and didn't involve Oberyn in everything.

IMO Rhaegar and Elia had something of an "open" marriage - perhaps by Elia's consent but not necessarily Dorne's approval.

ETA: I have zero proof of this whatsover but I would not be shocked to learn that Rhaegar spent some time in Oldtown, during his absense in RR. I bet there was some pretty nifty prophetic stuff at the Citadel that would have interested him. In any event, I seriously doubt the whole rebellion was sitting around the ToJ strumming harps and playing cyvasse with his pregnant paramour.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My memory is fuzzy but didn't Oberyn make some snarky comments about Rhaegar to Tyrion during his time in KL? I got the feeling there was definitely some derision there, though not outright loathing. I don't remember Doran saying anything about Rhaegar or Lyanna, which would make sense if Doran was playing a long game and didn't involve Oberyn in everything.

In show he did, in books, he has never mentioned Rhaegar.

The thing is that, even if Rhaegar hadn't left Elia for Lyanna, he still was needed for the battle, and he still would have been sent to fight, hence, leaving her and the children alone.

[PrettyPig]

In show he did, in books, he has never mentioned Rhaegar.

Ahh. I really need to stop watching the show - these blended parallel universes are just not working out for me at all.

Plus the show is pissing me off too, so there's that. :P

[Lady Blizzardborn]

My only point about Ashara was that it was yet another thing that happens in Dorne surrounding the ToJ. Everything that takes place surrounding Rhaegar's love affair with Lyanna takes place around Dorne, which in itself is strange considering it was all in violation of his marriage to Elia. Again, if I cheat on my wife I'm not going to do it in her parents' back yard. Just strange.

And do we honestly feel that Viserys is the most likely way for Doran Martell to put a grandchild on the iron throne? It seems to be more loyalty than power-grabbing to me.

Actually at that point Viserys was the best chance to get a grandchild on the throne. Robert was too old for Arianne, and he went and married the daughter of the man who was responsible for Elia and her children's heinous deaths. Betrothing any of his younger kids to Robert's kids would have been repugnant to Doran because of the Cersei connection. He agreed to the Myrcella/Trystane betrothal but we don't know that he ever intends for the marriage to happen.

Dorne is probably the last place anyone would think to look for Rhaegar and Lyanna precisely because of the Martells. I imagine that was why Rhaegar chose the location. And it's not like the ToJ is right next door to either Sunspear or the Water Gardens.

I wonder how much, if anything, Doran knows about the prophecy. He might excuse some of Rhaegar's actions based on his Targness and obsession with TPtwP. Or maybe he's just far too practical to hold grudges against dead people.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Everybody in Dorne knows that Elia & Oberyn were incest buddies. And those Dorners... they love loving. It's all cool.

So, since the incestuous Martells can't cross-marry the incestuous Lannisters (because Jo died)... Princess of Dorne gives a ring-ring to her other gal-pal: Rhaella T.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaella_Targaryen

Late year, 274AC

PoD: "Hey Rhae-Rhae.... did you hear that Jo just bit it?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Yup... whadda ya gon do about E&O continuing to shag?"

PoD: "Was thinking Rhaegar could pull off the pretend-hubby thang?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Oh, fo' sho. Works for me. Just make sure if E has any kids she has to give them Targ names... name the girl after me, the son after Big A".

PoD: "Done and done. So, who is Rhaegar into these days?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Well, he's feeling a bit down on his luck after hooking up with Jo and making that little dwarf. Heartbreaking turn of events, and of course Jo is dead."

PoD: "So what now?"

Rhae-Rhae: "Well, he wants to visit the boy... so he's going to start pretending to be a knight so he can go to tournaments at Lannisport & stuff."

PoD: "Oh, that'll be cool... be a good reason for him to take E so that her and O can do their thang. Those two..."

Rhae-Rhae: "Yeah... he's also obsessed with winning a tournie and naming somebody Queen of Love & Beauty - loves his mom."

PoD: "Oh girl... you don't mean..."

Rhae-Rhae: "I've been thinking about it..."

PoD: "Pssh, snap."

Rhae-Rhae: "Well... I shan't be too hasty about that one... hasty, ya know..."

PoD: "Girl, you know I know."

Rhae-Rhae: "OK, so you let me know when Elia is ready for the big wedding day. I'll let Rhaeg's know about this... he'll love it."

PoD: "TTYL."

Rhae-Rhae: "Buh-bye."

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: That is awesome!

The Dornish were annoyed, which is why they weren't heavily involved in the rebellion. They only sent 10,000 spearmen in time for the Trident; clearly they weren't too happy about supporting Aerys and Rhaegar.

Did they even have any more spearmen to send? I recall from AFFC that Doran tells Arianne they aren't as strong militarily as they let everyone think. I don't know how far back the illusion goes though.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Did they even have any more spearmen to send? I recall from AFFC that Doran tells Arianne they aren't as strong militarily as they let everyone think. I don't know how far back the illusion goes though.

Yes, Dorne is capable of raising more than 10,000. The exaggerated figure is 50,000, but most people think the truth is 20-30,000.

[The Sleeper]

My guess is that it got swept away in everything. Compared to the rape and murder of her and both her children, being cheated on by her husband seems like small stuff.

[Pod The Impaler]

Elia being kicked to the curb by Rhaegar clearly did anger the Martells. However, Aerys was no dummy - he kept Elia close to make sure Dorne supported the royal cause despite it.

[WhitewolfStark]

I just wonder why Dorne didn't just leave the 7K after RR. They were only in it because they were married to the targs. Now that they were gone they could have left and no one could do anything about it.

Dorne couldn't even be conquered with Dragons.

We're told that Jon Arryn not only brought the body fo Lewyn Martell (former Kingsguard) back to Dorne himself, but that he had a nice long chat with the Martells, and somehow out of that he managed to convince the Martells to stay with the rest of the Kingdom.

Jon Arryn--the real reason the Kingdom had 14 years of peace after Robert's Rebellion. The man does not get enough credit.

As to the OP, Rhaegar and Aerys are both dead and have been "dealt with". Tywin Lannister still lives and thrives.

And as to plotting to get Viserys or Danaerys back on the IT, I always read that as Doran thinking not to "restore the rightful heirs" but more taking advantage of the fact that they're "beggar princes" and would be easy to rule/control because of it.

[WhitewolfStark]

My guess is that it got swept away in everything. Compared to the rape and murder of her and both her children, being cheated on by her husband seems like small stuff.

:agree: Slighted by husband vs. Rape & Murder... I'd say Rape & Murder wins out.