Inconsistent Dornish reactions

[Winterfell is Burning]

You mean the rest of the Kingsguard (there are seven in total you know) and all the knights, sellswords, and Targ-loyal lords in King's Landing. Elia and the kids had far more people standing between them and danger than Lyanna did. Granted that didn't prevent their deaths (except maybe Aegon's). But anyway the topic isn't about who we blame, it's about who the Martells blame.

But the real danger was Aerys...

And had they gone to Dorne, Elia and the kids would have been a lot safer than in KL.

[Maid So Fair]

Elia might have been in on the affair if the vision Dany sees is true. Rheagar needed/wanted another heir and they both knew she could not provide one.

[Dornish Vinegar]

We're told that Jon Arryn not only brought the body fo Lewyn Martell (former Kingsguard) back to Dorne himself, but that he had a nice long chat with the Martells, and somehow out of that he managed to convince the Martells to stay with the rest of the Kingdom.

This is a nitpicky note, but Jon Arryn's visit to Dorne was not to prevent Dorne from declaring independence, but to quell Oberyn's efforts to raise support for a second rebellion in favor of Viserys. A minor detail, but an important one in discussions touching on a possible independent Dorne.

As for the OP, I have little to add other than to say that it is probably for a combination of reasons others have already brought up. Rape and murder overshadowing marital infidelity, lack of surviving Targaryens who would be responsible, Targaryen alliance being the best option for revenge, Dornish customs being more accepting of paramours, knowledge that Elia could not safely bear a third child, etc etc. I would also reemphasize that we do not know how Elia felt about Rhaegar's actions or whether they had an agreement--Doran and Oberyn's desire for revenge against Rhaegar for his slight would definitely have ended had Elia communicated that she was fine with it. Doran and the Martells knowing about and abetting the ToJ ordeal is an interesting idea, but one that is far from a sure thing.

[nara]

The Dornish aren't asshole Freys, they're not as uptight about marriage as the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, and they know that Elia was barren after her second child. Plus they know that the enemy of their enemy is their friend, and right now, the Starks are the biggest enemies of the Lannisters out there.

Here's what I don't understand, so I'd appreciate some info. Wasn't Aegon an infant when he was killed? And Rhaenys 3 years old? If so, wouldn't Elia have been pregnant at the Harrenhal tourney? Then they wouldn't have known yet that Elia couldn't have more kids...

[SerArthurHeath]

Plus Dorne is well into its paramours and promiscuity.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Here's what I don't understand, so I'd appreciate some info. Wasn't Aegon an infant when he was killed? And Rhaenys 3 years old? If so, wouldn't Elia have been pregnant at the Harrenhal tourney? Then they wouldn't have known yet that Elia couldn't have more kids...

Rhaegar didn't run off with Lyanna until a full year after the Harrenhal tourney, so they had plenty of time to find out that Elia couldn't have any more children after Aegon's birth.

[tomkat364]

Again, the topic is not suggesting that Dorne should like Lannisters or that they should hate Targaryens MORE than Lannisters. Yes, rape and murder overshadow the adultery that led to the rape and murder, but they don't ERASE the infidelity. I provided plenty of other examples of people flipping out over breaking marriage vows, even though there are plenty of people who break them with no repercussions.

Also "I would also reemphasize that we do not know how Elia felt about Rhaegar's actions or whether they had an agreement--Doran and Oberyn's desire for revenge against Rhaegar for his slight would definitely have ended had Elia communicated that she was fine with it." That's what I'm suggesting. Elia certainly seems fine with Rhaegar too. We never hear that she was even upset that he spurned her at the Tourney, everyone else was shocked and appalled that he had the arrogance to do it, but there is no suggestion that it was an issue with Elia or any of Dorne. If she was okay with it, and she obviously knows about the prophecy, and Rhaegar goes to Dorne to hide his "stolen" girlfriend, and Ned then takes the stolen baby to Dorne for a period of time, AND Dorne jumps right back in bed with the Targaryens, doesn't this all suggest that Dorne MIGHT have known more about what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna than, say, Robert?

My suggestion is this: We know that in current time, Doran is willing to enter into a perfectly false alliance with the Lannisters by betrothing Trystane to Myrcella. Yes, that's a good position for Trystane to be in, but we know that Doran is "actually" allied with the Targaryen's, and engaged in his own plot to put someone on the iron throne. Yet in 15 years he did nothing whatsoever to aid Viserys. Once Darry is dead, he allows Viserys and Dany to be chased, humiliated, and starving at times. Does this really seem like what you would do if your plan is to follow Viserys to the throne. I'm not saying harbor him in Dorne, I'm not saying send him an army, but maybe some food... or money... I'm sure you could pull that off in relative secrecy. My thought is that maybe Doran never intended to follow Viserys to the throne, because he knew that there was a living child of Rhaegar (in Jon), and was waiting for Jon to come of age. Everything else is backup plans and window dressing to appear as the passive, dimwitted, gutless ruler that we know he pretends to be. It's clear that Elia knew of the PtwP prophecy, and if she bought into it, perhaps her family did too.

[LadyLiz]

Cersei was cheated on hundreds of times and the Lannisters while annoyed with Robert Baratheon didn't stage a war over it. It wasn't until Cersei almost got tattled on by Ned that she does something about Robert. The fact of the matter is, kings aren't always faithful. I doubt the Martell's were please about Rhaegar running off with Lyanna but it isn't something you would necessarily get revenge over. The difference with the Frey/Stark relationship and the Martell/Targaryen relationship is that the Frey's were never put into the position of power through marriage. If Robb had married a Frey and then had an affair, they probably wouldn't have minded, instead they were cut off and could no longer claim a queen as a member of their family. Elia was a queen and Lyanna was the 'other woman'. Plus by the time the Lannisters got into the picture Elia was pretty much defenseless. Her husband and father in law were dead and she was a frail mother with young children, while it does on some level make political sense to kill her children, it is still clear why Dorne would be plotting revenge as a result.

[tomkat364]

None of the Lannister's cared about Robert's infidelities? Cersei certainly cared and took great joy in murdering him. She even ate the boar that killed him and commented no how fine it tasted. The reason they acted like they didn't care was because they were always planning on disposing of him in the long run to put a bastard on the throne, laughing behind their hands.

[LadyLiz]

They certainly were annoyed by it there is no question about that. The fact of the matter is that these marriages are alliances and as history shows us many political marriages were loveless and often tense. I don't think the Lannister's intended to kill Robert until he was a threat to them. Obviously Cersei hated Robert but it wasn't just because he was unfaithful, he was never the king she wanted to marry. Marrying Robert got her and the Lannisters ahead, Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen and she was. If Robert had been faithful to Cersei (and the kids were still Jamie's) it would not have changed his fate.

[SkaggCannibal]

The Martells don't have a special love for Targaryens, they just see them as a tool for their revenge for Elia. Nothing inconsistent about it.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Also "I would also reemphasize that we do not know how Elia felt about Rhaegar's actions or whether they had an agreement--Doran and Oberyn's desire for revenge against Rhaegar for his slight would definitely have ended had Elia communicated that she was fine with it." That's what I'm suggesting. Elia certainly seems fine with Rhaegar too. We never hear that she was even upset that he spurned her at the Tourney, everyone else was shocked and appalled that he had the arrogance to do it, but there is no suggestion that it was an issue with Elia or any of Dorne. If she was okay with it, and she obviously knows about the prophecy, and Rhaegar goes to Dorne to hide his "stolen" girlfriend, and Ned then takes the stolen baby to Dorne for a period of time, AND Dorne jumps right back in bed with the Targaryens, doesn't this all suggest that Dorne MIGHT have known more about what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna than, say, Robert?

Definitely a might.

My suggestion is this: We know that in current time, Doran is willing to enter into a perfectly false alliance with the Lannisters by betrothing Trystane to Myrcella. Yes, that's a good position for Trystane to be in, but we know that Doran is "actually" allied with the Targaryen's, and engaged in his own plot to put someone on the iron throne. Yet in 15 years he did nothing whatsoever to aid Viserys. Once Darry is dead, he allows Viserys and Dany to be chased, humiliated, and starving at times. Does this really seem like what you would do if your plan is to follow Viserys to the throne. I'm not saying harbor him in Dorne, I'm not saying send him an army, but maybe some food... or money... I'm sure you could pull that off in relative secrecy. My thought is that maybe Doran never intended to follow Viserys to the throne, because he knew that there was a living child of Rhaegar (in Jon), and was waiting for Jon to come of age. Everything else is backup plans and window dressing to appear as the passive, dimwitted, gutless ruler that we know he pretends to be. It's clear that Elia knew of the PtwP prophecy, and if she bought into it, perhaps her family did too.

I like this idea. I'm sure it's been hashed out on this board before, but it must have been before I started lurking as I never saw it. A gut counter to it would be, "well, why would Doran & Co support the son of a slight against Elia?" Your first paragraph addresses this, as it would depend on Doran and the Martells knowing more about the situation at the Tower of Joy, Elia's relationship with her husband, and the prophecy than we realize. I can't help but think of Sarella's actions at the Citadel as having something to do with this too. Surely there'd be heaps of good info there that the Maesters have about various prophecies, as I think someone pointed out earlier in the thread, IIRC. Also, the theory that Darkstar was a squire at the Tower of Joy fits really well into this.

The one thing that gives me pause: how would this overlap with Doran and Oberyn's plan for vengeance against Tywin Lannister? After all, Jon would not have any Martell blood, which would make getting him to the Iron Throne as a vengeance on Tywin a little less...viscerally satisfying to the Martells, I guess is a way I would put it. But at the end of the day, if they're operating under the assumption that Aegon and Rhaenys are dead, putting Viserys or Daenerys on the Throne would be the same thing, as they wouldn't be the son or daughter of a Martell either. In a way, putting Rhaegar's only living heir on the throne would be even more satisfying to them than a more random Targaryen like Viserys or Daenerys, as it would be speaking more towards Tywin's fury at Rhaegar not marrying Cersei. Like, "Yes, the children of Elia and Rhaegar are dead by your hand, but here is one that you missed. And guess what: he's still not Cersei's, and in fact is the son of a Stark mother who you have always had tension with, you sumbitch." Plus, with Arianne of an age to marry Jon, the fact that Jon's not of Martell blood would be mitigated.

Like I said, this theory's probably been discussed before, and as such may have already been thoroughly debunked, and as always it could use more hashing out, but imo it makes a lot more sense than trying to reconcile Doran's reputation as a man "who plays to win" with his lack of help to both Viserys and Daenerys for 15 years. As you say, his overtures to both of them could be seen as just window dressing or as hedging his bets. Cool idea, tomcat364. Cool idea indeed.

[CosimaistheHottest]

I like this idea. I'm sure it's been hashed out on this board before, but it must have been before I started lurking as I never saw it. A gut counter to it would be, "well, why would Doran & Co support the son of a slight against Elia?" Your first paragraph addresses this, as it would depend on Doran and the Martells knowing more about the situation at the Tower of Joy, Elia's relationship with her husband, and the prophecy than we realize. I can't help but think of Sarella's actions at the Citadel as having something to do with this too. Surely there'd be heaps of good info there that the Maesters have about various prophecies, as I think someone pointed out earlier in the thread, IIRC. Also, the theory that Darkstar was a squire at the Tower of Joy fits really well into this.

The one thing that gives me pause: how would this overlap with Doran and Oberyn's plan for vengeance against Tywin Lannister? After all, Jon would not have any Martell blood, which would make getting him to the Iron Throne as a vengeance on Tywin a little less...viscerally satisfying to the Martells, I guess is a way I would put it. But at the end of the day, if they're operating under the assumption that Aegon and Rhaenys are dead, putting Viserys or Daenerys on the Throne would be the same thing, as they wouldn't be the son or daughter of a Martell either. In a way, putting Rhaegar's only living heir on the throne would be even more satisfying to them than a more random Targaryen like Viserys or Daenerys, as it would be speaking more towards Tywin's fury at Rhaegar not marrying Cersei. Like, "Yes, the children of Elia and Rhaegar are dead by your hand, but here is one that you missed. And guess what: he's still not Cersei's, and in fact is the son of a Stark mother who you have always had tension with, you sumbitch." Plus, with Arianne of an age to marry Jon, the fact that Jon's not of Martell blood would be mitigated.

Like I said, this theory's probably been discussed before, and as such may have already been thoroughly debunked, and as always it could use more hashing out, but imo it makes a lot more sense than trying to reconcile Doran's reputation as a man "who plays to win" with his lack of help to both Viserys and Daenerys for 15 years. As you say, his overtures to both of them could be seen as just window dressing or as hedging his bets. Cool idea, tomcat364. Cool idea indeed.

There is a big difference between putting Viserys or Daenerys on the throne and putting "Jon" Rhaegars only living heir. One isn't the constant reminder that Rhaegar chose another woman over their sister. Left her and their children in the hands of his increasingly insanely father so he can make this reminder. Only to have her and her children brutally killed over it later on. And Lyannas bloodline not Elias who was suppose to be Queen and mother to a King has the throne. BIG DIFFERENCE

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I feel like the title of this thread should be "Why does Dorne hate the Lannisters but not Rhaegar like I do?"

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:cheers: :cheers:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Elia being kicked to the curb by Rhaegar clearly did anger the Martells.

I realised this when I was writing a brief summary for my Unsullied about Robert Rebellion: Oberyn was present when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. Lack of evidence isn't evidence but it's still odd that Oberyn constantly talked about Elia without mentioning Rhaegar's snub, which was witnessed by every other important Lord in Westeros. I'm not saying he didn't mind, but it's odd he didn't care a bit more.

[Dornish Vinegar]

There is a big difference between putting Viserys or Daenerys on the throne and putting "Jon" Rhaegars only living heir. One isn't the constant reminder that Rhaegar chose another woman over their sister. Left her and their children in the hands of his increasingly insanely father so he can make this reminder. Only to have her and her children brutally killed over it later on. And Lyannas bloodline not Elias who was suppose to be Queen and mother to a King has the throne. BIG DIFFERENCE

Of course. And that's why I said the theory would assume a certain number of things about Doran and Oberyn's knowledge on the Tower of Joy happenings, the prophecy Rhaegar was nuts about, and their sister's relationship with her husband. I'll include the quote from tomkat364 about those assumptions below.

Again, the topic is not suggesting that Dorne should like Lannisters or that they should hate Targaryens MORE than Lannisters. Yes, rape and murder overshadow the adultery that led to the rape and murder, but they don't ERASE the infidelity. I provided plenty of other examples of people flipping out over breaking marriage vows, even though there are plenty of people who break them with no repercussions.

Also "I would also reemphasize that we do not know how Elia felt about Rhaegar's actions or whether they had an agreement--Doran and Oberyn's desire for revenge against Rhaegar for his slight would definitely have ended had Elia communicated that she was fine with it." That's what I'm suggesting. Elia certainly seems fine with Rhaegar too. We never hear that she was even upset that he spurned her at the Tourney, everyone else was shocked and appalled that he had the arrogance to do it, but there is no suggestion that it was an issue with Elia or any of Dorne. If she was okay with it, and she obviously knows about the prophecy, and Rhaegar goes to Dorne to hide his "stolen" girlfriend, and Ned then takes the stolen baby to Dorne for a period of time, AND Dorne jumps right back in bed with the Targaryens, doesn't this all suggest that Dorne MIGHT have known more about what was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna than, say, Robert?

[tomkat364]

One assumption that we have all made is that Doran's endgame is to put someone on the throne. He definitely wants to kill Tywin, et.al. But the whole point to the PtwP theory is that it has nothing to do with families, kingdoms, or thrones. It revolves around the return of a great hero who will defend the realms of men from the great evil. Rhaegar bought into this. It's evident he spoke to Elia about it, as well as Maester Aemon. Aerys and Rhaella bought into it, since they married due to GoHH's foretelling. After the Red Keep, both Rhaenys and Aegon are dead. If Doran bought into it as well, his endgame may be more about the realm and less about Dorne.

I would assume that Lyanna would have been told something about the prophecy as well, considering how she was instrumental in Rhaegar's interpretation. Perhaps Ned's devotion to keeping his promise was also more about protecting the realm than protecting his dead sister's love child.

And again, why wouldn't Doran even TRY to aid Viserys in his exile if his whole 20 year plan relied on there being a living Viserys to honor the alliance?

[joluoto2]

As far as I understand:

1) Dorne mostly hated Tywin, the Mountain and Lorch, but since the people they hated all died and Oberyn was killed, the hate spread to all the Lannisters

2) The Dornish seem to have been pissed at Aerys and Rhaegar for Elia first being set aside, and later her and her children becoming Aerys' hostages to ensure the Dornish joined the war. Hoever they do not seem to blame all the Targaryens for this. It seems isolated to just Rhaegar and Aerys.