Jaime's biggest crime

[Russellstiltskin]

Jaime isn't allowed to care about his life and the lives of the ones he loves, just because he's a "hardened killer"? He has every right to feel as any common man.

And I'm sorry if I missed any of your points. Can you please bring them up again?

Where is that quote located?

If anyone was cuckolded, it was Robert by Cersei, not Cersei by Jaime.

You can't compare murder, of an innocent boy, in his home, while you are his guest, with "carelessness," no matter what it leads to.

Jon Arryn was dead, and Stannis was on Dragonstone, so if Bran opened his mouth who knows what would have come of it? But whatever did, it would be down the road. I think the problem of proof and Lord Tywin's rather large army and bankroll would cause Robert to hesitate until a trial, and the word of an 8 yr old wouldn't be enough to justify imprisoning one Jaime Lannister, let alone the executions of Jaime, Cersei, and their children.

Even Cersei could've flung Bran from the window if that was the only answer, but it wasn't.

Also, you are applying a flawed logic to this: assuming that the three children of incest would have been killed. Robert could've chosen not to believe the Jiame and Cersei scenario, either in part or in whole. He could've refused to believe they weren't his kids, or thought Bran was mistaken. And Stannis never brought the matter up to Robert because of their relationship and how the accusations would seem coming from him.

And I have thought about it, and the certain serious injury or death that Jaime sends Bran to isn't warranted by the possibility of what you say is the worst-case scenario. Have you thought about my point of Jaime being stupid by trying to kill Eddard Stark's 8 year old son at Winterfell? The consequences and questions that would 've been asked under those circumstances would be more immediate and just as awful. The fact that Jaime does what he does is simply his character at the time of the incident; I don't think he was thinking of his children (he didn't even look at them that way,) he was thinking of fucking Cersei.

Bran never did talk, so obviously it was the wrong choice, especially considering what it led to. If Bran wasn't injured, Joff doesn't send an assassin, Tyrion isn't imprisoned (and almost killed,) Ned Stark wouldn't have been attacked in the streets of KL, and there would've been a chance for peace between Stark and Lannister.

Well, I don't think Jaime can be blamed for Elia and her kids, because he was with the King and couldn't be in two places. So it was either the LC of the Kingsguard who erred, or Aerys, or perhaps even Rhaegar, for leaving them unprotected, IMO.

But although he definitely saved lives and this isn't something I hold against his character, he had already killed Rossart, so Aerys didn't need to die simply to preserve KL.

And I hated seeing Jory die, but in Jaime's defense he could've killed Lord Stark and Catelyn had taken Tyrion under false pretenses, to be tried unjustly by a madwoman.

And at this point, you could argue the rightful heir to the IT is subjective, so I can absolve Jaime of not supporting Stannis.

Here's some

[Brute of Bracken]

He has the right to, but that doesn't mean he did or does in this situation. Because Jaime is who he is at this point, Cersei's kids didn't come into his thinking IMO, just Cersei's happiness, her cunt, and Jaime's happiness. He has the right to feel like an ordinary man, but he is no ordinary man.

Since you agree that he thought about Cersei, who is a woman he loves, I'm not sure what your point is. Like a common man, he does think about a person he loves.

[Brute of Bracken]

If anyone was cuckolded, it was Robert by Cersei, not Cersei by Jaime.

I stand corrected.

You can't compare murder, of an innocent boy, in his home, while you are his guest, with "carelessness," no matter what it leads to.

I thought we agreed that given Jaime's situation, his action was understandable, and that many people are likely to act the same way. So I'm not sure why he gets so much criticism for this. On the other hand, it was his own carelessness, callousness and blind love for Cersei which led to this situation - which is what I criticize.

Jon Arryn was dead, and Stannis was on Dragonstone, so if Bran opened his mouth who knows what would have come of it? But whatever did, it would be down the road. I think the problem of proof and Lord Tywin's rather large army and bankroll would cause Robert to hesitate until a trial, and the word of an 8 yr old wouldn't be enough to justify imprisoning one Jaime Lannister, let alone the executions of Jaime, Cersei, and their children.

Exactly - who knows what would have come of it? There was a significant risk of Robert finding the truth. Also, while Robert gives the Lannisters certain leeway due to their money and power, he will likely not stand for them passing their bastards for his son. His anger is fearsome, and he does hate the Lannisters. Not to mention the fact that Jon Arryn - who is someone he trusts - is likely to corroborate Bran's evidence, along with Stannis. All in all, Jaime runs a big risk of death for himself and Cersei in case Bran talks.

Even Cersei could've flung Bran from the window if that was the only answer, but it wasn't.

I remember Cersei telling Jaime Bran could have been scared into silence. I think this is Cersei wanting to put the whole blame on Jaime for pushing Bran. Typical Cersei.

Also, you are applying a flawed logic to this: assuming that the three children of incest would have been killed. Robert could've chosen not to believe the Jiame and Cersei scenario, either in part or in whole. He could've refused to believe they weren't his kids, or thought Bran was mistaken. And Stannis never brought the matter up to Robert because of their relationship and how the accusations would seem coming from him.

Stannis and Jon Arryn never brought the matter up before because they didn't have proof. Now they have an eye witness. It is quite likely that Robert in his rage chooses to kill Jaime and Cersei's children as well. After all, he seemed to be fine with the death of the Targaryen children. Even Stannis still wants to kill the "abominations."

And I have thought about it, and the certain serious injury or death that Jaime sends Bran to isn't warranted by the possibility of what you say is the worst-case scenario. Have you thought about my point of Jaime being stupid by trying to kill Eddard Stark's 8 year old son at Winterfell? The consequences and questions that would 've been asked under those circumstances would be more immediate and just as awful. The fact that Jaime does what he does is simply his character at the time of the incident; I don't think he was thinking of his children (he didn't even look at them that way,) he was thinking of fucking Cersei.

Well, this is where it is up for debate. How much weightage should Jaime assign for his own life and Cersei's life, versus Bran's? Once again - I'm not saying Jaime took the right choice, but at least I can understand what he would have thought at the time. Again, I believe a lot of people in that situation would indeed kill n innocent to save their loved ones if it comes down to it.

Bran never did talk, so obviously it was the wrong choice, especially considering what it led to. If Bran wasn't injured, Joff doesn't send an assassin, Tyrion isn't imprisoned (and almost killed,) Ned Stark wouldn't have been attacked in the streets of KL, and there would've been a chance for peace between Stark and Lannister.

Bran didn't talk as he was pushed by Jaime and seriously injured, with some of his memories apparently suppressed. He might have talked had Jaime let him go.

What Jaime did was despicable, no doubt. However, I reiterate that I don't criticize Jaime too much for the specific action of pushing Bran, instead I criticize him for his actions leading up to the situation.

I hope I answered all your points.

[Terilien]

Getting Cersei pregnant. If it hadn't been for that, there would be no bran pushing or any of the other crimes that followed.

[RavenKing23]

Do people honestly believe Jaime was thinking of his childern when he tossed Bran out?

[Lost Time]

It's absolutely hilarious to see the mental gymnastics that attempt to absolve and sympathize with Jaime for tossing a child out of a window, but Stoneheart hanging a young enemy combatant is tantamount to some of the greatest evil we've seen in the story.

[Brute of Bracken]

Do people honestly believe Jaime was thinking of his childern when he tossed Bran out?

No, he was likely thinking of himself and Cersei.

It's absolutely hilarious to see the mental gymnastics that attempt to absolve and sympathize with Jaime for tossing a child out of a window, but Stoneheart hanging a young enemy combatant is tantamount to some of the greatest evil we've seen in the story.

Nobody is trying to absolve Jaime of his actions. Jaime has certainly done some despicable acts in the story, and I do criticize him. However, my criticism is directed not at the action itself, but at the root cause which has led to the action.

And I'm not sure where Lady Stoneheart comes into the picture.

[Pod The Impaler]

Jaime's lie about Tysha did not lead to Tysha's gangrape, only to Tyrion's participation in it. And about that Tyrion should blame himself.

In a way it did. Tyrion was a boy, trying to become a man and craving approval from a father who despised him; Tywin was a man, well-versed in how to manipulate, intimidate and brutalize people.

In between the two stood a knight, who had a choice to defend his brother and brother's innocent wife, or to cave in and let both the girl and his brother's life be ruined for all time.

If he had refused to lie, responsibility for the act would be on Tywin's head alone - by going along with the lie, he made himself and Tyrion part of the crime.

Jaime was no true knight.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Jaime was about 15 year old during the Tysha's incident.

And his role in it was basically to go along with the lie his father crafted. If he doesn't, then what? A long and happy married life for Tyrion? Or Tywin simply has Tysha killed? What do you think is more likely?

It's a fucked up world these characters live in, I pretty much gave up judging them by modern moral standards since the impossible dilemnas they face wouldn't occur in today's world (in occident, anyway).

[LROSyke]

Killing his King, and fucking his Queen.

Its so absurd how many fans he has.

[Cloud]

No, he was likely thinking of himself and Cersei.

GRRM pretty much implies that Jaime did think about his kids when he threw bran.

(link here)

At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don't have any kids myself, but I've talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn't just trying to kill Bran because he's an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I've asked people who do have children, "Well, what would you do in Jaime's situation?" They say, "Well, I'm not a bad guy – I wouldn't kill." Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he's going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, "Yeah, I would kill someone else's child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent." These are the difficult decisions people make, and they're worth examining.

[Masha's apron]

Is it just me ... or is there something not right about Jamie's actions?

Why does he push Bran out of the window? To protect his children? I don't really see much evidence that Jamie even gives a fig for his kids.

And he kills Aerys, knowing that he will be known as a Kingslayer. Does he particularly care? It doesn't ever seem he does.

And again, Jamie would not know Bran was a climber. Would it not seem to him that randomly pushing a Stark boy out of a high window might cause some difficult questions? Jamie does not actually know that Bran had the ability to climb up that high; what if he had been hiding in the room? Who actually benefits from Bran's fall out of the window? I think we might know the answer to that one ...

... after all, how else would Bloodraven get Bran to come to him? Think of all the people, situations and abilities that need to be removed for that journey of Bran's to realistically take place.

[Baelor Blacktyde]

I see two ways to approach this question:

1) What is Jaime's biggest crime, according to modern-day sensibilities and morality;

2) What is Jaime's biggest crime, in the world of Westeros

Number 2 is easier to answer, what would be his biggest crime in the world of Westeros.

• Jaime's biggest crime, according to Westeros mores, is being the Kingslayer. A member of the Kingsguard should be giving his life to obey the king's orders, regardless of what the king tells you to do. Kingslayer is what most people call him when they want to insult him (e.g. the Blackfish when they have a parlay in front of Riverrun).
• Second biggest crime would be sleeping with the King's wife. Though in the patriarchal world of Westeros (excepting Dorne) everyone is quite OK with Robert having all those bastards.
• Incest? I know that the septons seem to call it a crime, but as Jaime himself points out, the Targaryens did it all the time. So the shock value is not that great. Pretty hypocritical of the septons to call it a crime.
• Pushing Bran out of a window? Killing children is not so great, but in the world of Westeros, with all the wars and killings we see, probably not that big of deal, except for the fact that Bran is the son of a lord. Gregor Clegane chops the head off a young squire (during his duel with Oberyn) just because the boy is in his way during a fight, and no one in the book calls that a crime.
• Killing Ned's men? That's what you do to members of rival houses when you're in conflict with them. You kill them. In Westeros, no big deal. Just expect that the other side will be doing the same to you.
• Lying to Tyrion about his wife? She's smallfolk, she doesn't matter. Lords don't marry smallfolk, they sleep with them. (Jaime did not know what Tywin Lannister had planned for Tysha).

What is Jaime's biggest crime, according to modern-day sensibilities and morality?
First I'll list the smaller "crimes".

• Sleeping with the King's wife? How is that bad? The King himself is sleeping around right and left, with sixteen bastard children. How could anyone blame Cersei and Jaime for having an affair?
• Sleeping with his sister? This is two people of the same age engaging in a consensual relationship. Again, I don't call this a crime. I suppose that in today's society, incest is considered to be unpalatable, but it's a different situation than a father forcing himself on his young daughter. To be honest, I don't even know if what they are doing (now that they are adults) is illegal (at least where I live in the USA).
• Lying to his brother about Tysha? Jaime is from a rich family, it wouldn't be hard for him or his father to believe that no one is going to fall in love with Tyrion for himself, they are bound to be after his money. Especially since Tyrion is always described as being ugly, and Jaime, being tall, good-looking and vain, would not believe that someone could love an ugly dwarf. Jaime could be thinking he's doing his brother a favor, by preventing him from getting married at too young an age. Again, assuming that Jaime did not know Lord Tywin's plan to have Tysha raped by a whole group of guards.

The major crimes:

• Killing Ned's men. That's pretty bad. If you have a problem with someone, you should take it up with them, not with their followers. I can't really forgive Jaime for that one.
• Throwing Bran out the window. Unforgivable. He's just a kid. You try to talk to him first to see if you can convince him to remain quiet. As soon as I read that, I was itching for Jaime to get his head chopped off by Ice toot sweet.

[The Kinkslayer]

Jaime's biggest crime is a fashion crime, seriously a white cloak?

[Brute of Bracken]

GRRM pretty much implies that Jaime did think about his kids when he threw bran.

(link here)

Nice link. But given he wasn't too depressed about Joffrey's death, I doubt if he is too affectionate about his chilren. But even if Jaime doesn't think about his children, he certainly does think of someone else he loves - Cersei. So it doesn't really matter much in this context.

• Throwing Bran out the window. Unforgivable. He's just a kid. You try to talk to him first to see if you can convince him to remain quiet. As soon as I read that, I was itching for Jaime to get his head chopped off by Ice toot sweet.

I don't see how you can give him a pass for siring bastards with Cersei but not for pushing Bran. To me, it is almost the opposite - In the Bran case, I think most people might do the same thing Jaime did in that exact situation, and while it is still a crime, I can understand what he would have thought and I don't think this makes him particularly evil. On the other hand, his blind love for Cersei combined with his own callousness led to the situation in the first place - that is what I feel is the bigger crime.

[Dofs]

I don't understand why people say he didn't care about his children then. He didn't have fatherly feelings towards them? Sure. But he well knew how much Cersei cares about them.

'My son. He tried to bring the boy's face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei's. She will be in mourning, her hair in disarray and her eyes red from crying, her mouth trembling as she tries to speak.'

And he was conscious that they were his children. It was really only after Joffrey's death he really realized how little he cared about him.

'He was curiously calm. Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots, to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. So why was it that he felt so little?'

'He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. '

As little as he cared about them, they were still much more important to Jaime than Bran. Who truly was the kid he did not care about.

[Minsc]

Jaime was about 15 year old during the Tysha's incident.

And his role in it was basically to go along with the lie his father crafted. If he doesn't, then what? A long and happy married life for Tyrion? Or Tywin simply has Tysha killed? What do you think is more likely?

Jaime was 20, seeing how he is seven years older then Tyrion and it happened when Tyrion was 13. Moreover, he was already a member of the Kingsguard thus wasn't under Tywin's control.

Do you think that if his Golden Son had stood his ground and repeatedly defended Tyrion and Tysha that Tywin would have been able to get away with what he did?

[Brute of Bracken]

Jaime was 20, seeing how he is seven years older then Tyrion and it happened when Tyrion was 13. Moreover, he was already a member of the Kingsguard thus wasn't under Tywin's control.

Do you think that if his Golden Son had stood his ground and repeatedly defended Tyrion and Tysha that Tywin would have been able to get away with what he did?

Probably, yes. Tywin is still the lord of Casterly Rock. The best Jaime cn do is tell the truth and offer advice. Which he should have done.

[Minsc]

Probably, yes. Tywin is still the lord of Casterly Rock. The best Jaime cn do is tell the truth and offer advice. Which he should have done.

Stood up for Tyrion and Tysha, while placing himself between them and Tywin. Thus, making Tywin realize that he would risk losing him and his loyalty forever if he hurt either one of them. Afterwards, invite Tyrion and Tysha to live in KL with him as I sure Robert wouldn't notice if they took some quarters in the Red Keep.

If anything, Tywin is still a sucker for Jaime.

[Brute of Bracken]

Stood up for Tyrion and Tysha, while placing himself between them and Tywin. Thus, making Tywin realize that he would risk losing him and his loyalty forever if he hurt either one of them. Afterwards, invite Tyrion and Tysha to live in KL with him as I sure Robert wouldn't notice if they took some quarters in the Red Keep.

If anything, Tywin is still a sucker for Jaime.

I'm not sure. Tywin could have disowned Jaime if he got too far, but I don't see him giving in to Jaime's demands and accepting Tysha. And in any case Jaime is part of the kingsguard, and later gets disowned - so it isn't like Tywin is too much of a sucker for Jaime.