R+L=J v.84

[MtnLion]

We have zero idea about her virginity, but it is likely that the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal was Brandon. He has a record of that sort of behaviour, he actually talked to her and got her to do something he asked her to, he's a great catch (heir to the north, bigger, stronger and better looking than Ned) and wild playboy, the type that silly young women fall over. Barristan, who was in love with Ashara and thus likely paying attention to what was happening around her, thinks that young girls always go for 'fire' men (=Brandon) when they'd really be much better off with 'mud' men (=Ned).

I want to nit-pick a little here. We have the word of a woman who is obviously lying about other things about Brandon taking whatever he wanted. To me it could easily be a stretch. We do have a suspect that does take whatever he wants, whenever he wants, never looking back. Everyone seems to leave him out of their list of suspects for dishonoring Ashara. But, why don't we have Robert on the list?

From the TV show (I know) before Jaime turns the page of the White Book to his entry, the last entries for Barristan are visible. (You need to know that the three stalks of wheat are Barristan's house symbol.) The first line reads something like "he accompanied Ashara Dayne to Harrenhal". I will work on getting the two still frames that show a portion of the page. It also mentions his wounding at the Trident, and him being absolved by Robert and becoming Robert's Kingsguard.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I want to nit-pick a little here. We have the word of a woman who is obviously lying about other things about Brandon taking whatever he wanted. To me it could easily be a stretch. We do have a suspect that does take whatever he wants, whenever he wants, never looking back. Everyone seems to leave him out of their list of suspects for dishonoring Ashara. But, why don't we have Robert on the list?

Because of Barristans "Stark"? Barristan suggests it was a Stark. Benjen was too young, Ned's character doesn't add up, and all we know about Brandon (which might not be completely true) suggests that he might have been the one (though it doesn't confirm it)

[Alia of the knife]

I want to nit-pick a little here. We have the word of a woman who is obviously lying about other things about Brandon taking whatever he wanted. To me it could easily be a stretch. We do have a suspect that does take whatever he wants, whenever he wants, never looking back. Everyone seems to leave him out of their list of suspects for dishonoring Ashara. But, why don't we have Robert on the list?

From the TV show (I know) before Jaime turns the page of the White Book to his entry, the last entries for Barristan are visible. (You need to know that the three stalks of wheat are Barristan's house symbol.) The first line reads something like "he accompanied Ashara Dayne to Harrenhal". I will work on getting the two still frames that show a portion of the page. It also mentions his wounding at the Trident, and him being absolved by Robert and becoming Robert's Kingsguard.

I had thought about that too, but the only thing makes it complicated, is how would Ned respond to Roberts behavior even as he apparently still wants Lyanna to marry him?

Even in later years when whatever was left of the old Robert was gone, Ned still loves him for "loving" Lyanna, which I could never fathom, unless on some level he entertained the fantasy that Lyanna might have changed him, (and she was more realistic than that).

"Love is sweet dearest Ned, but it does not change a mans nature..."

[MtnLion]

1) no dragons.

2) weak King upon the IT

3) polygamy has not been practiced in some time.

You limit the discussion to polygamy, but I want to expand this particular line. We know that polygamy is not illegal and has been practiced in the past by Targaryens, and is presently practiced by others. No one has said that the faith of the seven opposed polygamy, though they are definitely opposed to incest. If not having dragons makes the Targaryen's practices less likely, why do Aerys and Rhaella (brother and sister) marry and the faith of the seven does not object?

[MtnLion]

I think the Stark and Targaryen sigils combatant would make a lot of sense, but my preference is also for a blue rose. :)

Quartered: red-black, grey-white, blue rose paramount.

[MtnLion]

Because of Barristans "Stark"? Barristan suggests it was a Stark. Benjen was too young, Ned's character doesn't add up, and all we know about Brandon (which might not be completely true) suggests that he might have been the one (though it doesn't confirm it)

Take the sentence as a whole. Did Barristan want to dishonor Ashara at her request (he reinforces his vow of celibacy a bit earlier, and I seem to transfer that to this sentence and both targets, Selmy and Stark) in lieu of her looking to Stark? "Looking" is a legal term, as in looking for justice.

ETA: Thread reported.

[MtnLion]

I had thought about that too, but the only thing makes it complicated, is how would Ned respond to Roberts behavior even as he apparently still wants Lyanna to marry him?

Even in later years when whatever was left of the old Robert was gone, Ned still loves him for "loving" Lyanna, which I could never fathom, unless on some level he entertained the fantasy that Lyanna might have changed him, (and she was more realistic than that).

"Love is sweet dearest Ned, but it does not change a mans nature..."

We do not know the exact timing of the betrothal. However, it is customary for the prospective groom or his head of household to view and accept the bride. I will maintain that this is how things went with Robert and Lyanna:

1. They attend Harrenhal for the purposes of meeting

Robert accepts the offer (This may be days into the tourney, as we know he is busy drinking and hitting.)

Ned relays Robert's acceptance (or offer) to his father, Rickard at Winterfell

Lyanna objects, which might be immediately before Ned relays the offer

There is no reason that we would believe that Ned would know who dishonored Ashara, nor even that he knew that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal. Ned never thinks about Ashara, even to recall the dance at Harrenhal.

[BearQueen87]

You limit the discussion to polygamy, but I want to expand this particular line. We know that polygamy is not illegal and has been practiced in the past by Targaryens, and is presently practiced by others. No one has said that the faith of the seven opposed polygamy, though they are definitely opposed to incest. If not having dragons makes the Targaryen's practices less likely, why do Aerys and Rhaella (brother and sister) marry and the faith of the seven does not object?

IIRC (and I think this is what you're getting at) Aerys and Rhaella marry because they are ordered to do so by Aegon V (prophecies once again coming into play). Which I think goes to show that when it comes to King-Septon relationships, the King is really in charge and that, for the most part in recent history, the Setpon yields to the King's desires.

Quartered: red-black, grey-white, blue rose paramount.

Love that