R+L=J v.84

[Alia of the knife]

I have witnesses! :lol:

It's as Ygrain said. If you work with textual analysis on a daily basis, you get acquainted with certain narrative devices (at the end of the day, screenplay is a text) and more often than not you can safely guess where a certain plot or storyline is going. More training than cleverness, I'd say :dunce: ;)

ETA Thanx Lady G :blushing:

I'm pretty sure you are clever and training only enhances it. :bowdown:

Per our last conversation, the Stark backstory is an unknown, but I think is the link that makes the story of Ice and Fire come full circle.

Taking a peek into their family closet to see whats rattling around could make the Targaryens look like alter boys. :D

I've been a long time lurker around here, whenever I can I read all the posts on the R+L=J threads. But I never post mostly because you guys already said everything that I think about it! Well, this time I just found a passage between Tyrion and Jon that I don't remember seeing around here. I know, at this point we can't find anything really new and schocking anymore until a new book release, but I think it's pretty interesting anyway.

Well, the meaning of the last bolded part is that Tyrion is accusing Jon of also have dreamed of harming people who treated him badly for being a bastard. But the "I know your secret", the way Jon doesn't firmly deny it and all the buzz about dragon dreams in the series makes the second interpretation much more interesting: Tyrion is unknowingly recognizing Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also, the look Jon gave him is strange if it was meant to mean just what it seems: why Jon is fascinated by this confession about Tyrion's family? I don't believe he ever really thought of harming even Catelyn this way, so I bet the fascination comes from hearing about someone else who shares the same kind of dreams he has.

And to keep going with the how we found out about R+L=J subject: I discovered watching the first two episodes of the show, and I couldn't even differentiate between Robb, Jon and Theon at first haha I thought it was awfully strange that Ned made all that secret of who Jon's mother was, but it hit me when Ned and Robert were talking about Lyanna. Robert says "How many times do you think he [Rhaegar] raped your sister?" and I thought "If he really raped her that much she must have got pregnant, there are no condoms in Westeros afterall". Lyanna's mysterious death was also something that bugged me, so dying in childbirth explained it all. But where was the child? "Wait a minute, Jon doesn't have a mother. And Rhaegar and Lyanna's child would have his age and no mother as well... OH MY GOD JON IS THEIR SON, NOT NEDS!" I thought I had uncovered the biggest secret ever and then googled something like "Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents" and my moment of brilliance was taken away from me when I saw I wasn't the first one to get it :cool4:

That is an amazing catch.

[Ser Creighton]

I've been a long time lurker around here, whenever I can I read all the posts on the R+L=J threads. But I never post mostly because you guys already said everything that I think about it! Well, this time I just found a passage between Tyrion and Jon that I don't remember seeing around here. I know, at this point we can't find anything really new and schocking anymore until a new book release, but I think it's pretty interesting anyway.

Well, the meaning of the last bolded part is that Tyrion is accusing Jon of also have dreamed of harming people who treated him badly for being a bastard. But the "I know your secret", the way Jon doesn't firmly deny it and all the buzz about dragon dreams in the series makes the second interpretation much more interesting: Tyrion is unknowingly recognizing Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also, the look Jon gave him is strange if it was meant to mean just what it seems: why Jon is fascinated by this confession about Tyrion's family? I don't believe he ever really thought of harming even Catelyn this way, so I bet the fascination comes from hearing about someone else who shares the same kind of dreams he has.

And to keep going with the how we found out about R+L=J subject: I discovered watching the first two episodes of the show, and I couldn't even differentiate between Robb, Jon and Theon at first haha I thought it was awfully strange that Ned made all that secret of who Jon's mother was, but it hit me when Ned and Robert were talking about Lyanna. Robert says "How many times do you think he [Rhaegar] raped your sister?" and I thought "If he really raped her that much she must have got pregnant, there are no condoms in Westeros afterall". Lyanna's mysterious death was also something that bugged me, so dying in childbirth explained it all. But where was the child? "Wait a minute, Jon doesn't have a mother. And Rhaegar and Lyanna's child would have his age and no mother as well... OH MY GOD JON IS THEIR SON, NOT NEDS!" I thought I had uncovered the biggest secret ever and then googled something like "Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents" and my moment of brilliance was taken away from me when I saw I wasn't the first one to get it :cool4:

It's an interesting point about Jon, but I would say the author is using a device there to plant seeds and create a bit of imagery. At least with the Dragon. The Dragon part can be pretty vague as most kids have had that dreams and most people who read fantasy novels were once children and just may have had a wish to ride a dragon. But not the stupid luck dragon from Never Ending Story even though a giant flying dog is still awesome.

The second text you highlighted is interesting. Because we have seen some of Jon's dreams, not including the Wolf Dream. But in Jon's two other dreams, which are very different but have a common theme. Jon dreams of the dead, and even killed his brother unRobb in one dream.

I see it's the when did you discover R+L=J question being floated today. That's a nice mellow topic. Now I can't say I was the first person to discover R+L=J,, but back when I was a fetus in my mothers womb, I had a vision of a blue rose, a Silver Prince, a skinny pretty girl laughing in a giant white tree, It was snowing and a voice said Jon. A man named Ned appeared he said I am your father Jon but then the no sign appeared. A sad looking old woman with 3 men in white Her name was Joy and she was standing in a tower. Then a voice said R+L=J, and I new, I new on instinct.

Later as a child I built a time machine and traveled back in time, just to see what it was like. Somehow I ended up in 1968, in Evanston Il. It was a bit like the book the time Machine but hippies instead of the Eloi and no Morlocks to thin out the heard. There I came across a chubby student with a beard and a hat with a turtle pin in it. He was talking about something called the Corn Code that he wanted to put in a book, I said no oh strange and chubby Eloi hippie, it must be R+L=J, then I explained the entire concept to him but he said that would never work in a book. Well who is laughing now Turtle boy.

[Alia of the knife]

FF3, do you still have the graphic of Jon and Rhaegar (unhelmed)?

If so, can you repost, pretty please 😇

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think it help to read the books after you have watched the show. You don't lose your time trying to remember all the characters, their motivations... and your brain can concentrate on more details. Plus, you take your time to read because you already know what's going to happen.

Thank you all for your answers ! :grouphug:

Thanks for a great topic! As for the bolded, yes, I do think that watching the show first helped me realize R+L=J in Book One. Ned's POV chapters (and as stated upthread, Bran's dream of Ned) all but give the goods away.

Part of me wishes I had read ASoIaF long ago. But another part of me is glad that I read them post-show, because I went into the HBO series with zero expectations. Usually it's the other way around for me. Most movie and TV adaptations of my favorite books leave me disappointed.

A spot-on. I could only add, "and they don't give them mysterious mothers unless it is IMPORTANT".

It seems we have the same tastes :-)

You have great taste! Yes, it makes total sense that Jon's mother is Lyanna and not Wylla or even Ashara. Now that I've read the books and am fast catching up with fan theories, I can't help but look for glimpses of his parents in Jon's personality, motivations, and choices. :cool4:

[FrozenFire3]

FF3, do you still have the graphic of Jon and Rhaegar (unhelmed)?

If so, can you repost, pretty please

There :)

On a side note, I just got my Kindle version of the The Rogue Prince :wideeyed:

[Pigeon Pie]

There :)

Gosh, I always had the notion Jon would look like Rhaegar (other than the coloring, I'm talking build and set of features) and it could be recognized on sight by someone who knew the latter, and that's mostly why Ned was nervous because of Robert's visit who happened to be escorted by a crowd of people who met Rhaegar (Jaime and Cersei, Barristan etc) because otherwise Jon looks everything like Ned, via Lyanna. This photo just makes it obvious.

[FrozenFire3]

Guys, do we have any description in the books of Jon's... nose? I know, weird question but I have my reasons ;)

We have of course the graphic novel's depiction (approved by GRRM himself), and I remember Alia's peculiar description of Jon's nose. Let's only say that reading a passage of TRP gave me quite the goosebumps...

[Pigeon Pie]

Guys, do we have any description in the books of Jon's... nose? I know, weird question but I have my reasons ;)

We have of course the graphic novel's depiction (approved by GRRM himself), and I remember Alia's peculiar description of Jon's nose. Let's only say that reading a passage of TRP gave me quite the goosebumps...

I haven't stumbled upon any thus far, GRRM is more intent on describing hair and eyes and cheekbones generally...

Can you copy this passage, please? You made me curious.

[FrozenFire3]

I haven't stumbled upon any thus far, GRRM is more intent on describing hair and eyes and cheekbones generally...

Can you copy this passage, please? You made me curious.

I thought so... Here is the passage, it uses exactly the same adjective Alia used to describe comics-Jon's nose:

Ser Laenor had

the aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes that bespoke his Valyrian blood.

[Pigeon Pie]

I thought so... Here is the passage, it uses exactly the same adjective Alia used to describe comics-Jon's nose:

Ser Laenor had

the aquiline nose, silver-white hair, and purple eyes that bespoke his Valyrian blood.

:O good! First canon similarity between Jon and the Targs!

[corbon]

Transferred here from small questions...

Thanks.
So... it sounds like the common theory (among those on this site) is that Rhaegar was mostly searching out a woman to have his 3rd child with... simply to fulfill "the prophecy"?
Is that the common theory?


I mean...
a) if Elia had birthed Aegon in the months prior to Tourney at Harrenhal, then Rhaegar is a pretty big douche to queen Lyanna QoL&B considering his poor wife suffered so badly from the child birth. (This is not true. As Tourney was in 281AC, Aegon born in 282AC).
b-)if Elia is pregnant with Aegon during Tourney at Harrenhall, then Rhaegar is a pretty big douche to queen Lyanna QoL&B considering his poor wife is pregnant.
c) if Elia is not yet with child during Tourney at Harrenhall... then Rhaegar would be an ENORMOUS douche to want to sleep with her to produce his 2nd AFTER he has recently crowned Lyanna as QoL&B.
d) Elia is just completely OK with Rhaegar pursuing Lyanna.

(I'm a numbers-guy... my brain cycles through most every permutation of events)

Only AFTER Elia has their 2nd child (Aegon VI) is she declared to be unfit to have more children.
But yet... before this "truth" is known (that she can not birth any more)... Rhaegar seems to be chasing Lyanna.


What is the common interpretation of this?

Rhaegar does not chase Lyanna at Harrenhal. There is no big romance thing there and the QoLaB naming is not the huge deal people try to make it out here all the time. It was a shock, a surprise, because people thought they knew boring old dutiful Rhaegar would name his wife and instead he names some almost unknown young northern girl (making her first appearance in the south)...

The QoLaB is Rhaegar's way of acknowledging, respecting and rewarding Lyanna's actions as KotLT - something that can't be done publicly because paranoid Aerys has declared the tKotLT an enemy of the crown and ordered Rhaegar to find him.

So Rhaegar awards Lyanna the crown, everyone is shocked, but we hear no more buzz or gossip about them afterwards. Why? Because obviously there was nothing more to it than that at the time. Probably Rhaegar went straight back to Elia and publicly showed his loyalty and affection to her - he's supposed to be a smart chap after all and is still almost universally popular.
Within a month or two Elia announces her pregnancy and around 9 months or so after Harrenhal Aegon is born. Rhaegar is then seen in Dany's vision apparently happy with his plan for Aegon and noting that there must be one more. But the Maester's annnounce Elia can't provide that one more and then Rhaegar's thoughts stray to that bold, brave, honour-loving northern girl he met at Harrenhal. Hey, isn't she ice to his fire...

So your a, b and c above are just unnecessary. They assume Rhaegar is chasing Lyanna at Harrenhal, but the data we have doesn't support this. There is a clear, sensible, in character, reason for his actions there and none of the expected angst that should be present past the immediate moment if there were more to it than just that instant (note that a widely quoted SSM that says Dorne had some anger over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia refers to much later, well after he had actually been reported as abducting Lyanna).

Your d is possible, but more or less entirely unknown. It seems Elia probably knows of his plan/need for another child. Whether she is privy to the why, and whether she agreed and/or gave her blessing (reluctantly or enthusiastically) is not known at all.

[LadyLiz]

I like to imagine that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Rhaegar being tasked with finding who it is discovers it was her and being intrigued by her crowns her as the queen of beauty thus beginning their interaction. I don't think she was being romantically pursued by Rhaegar at any point during the tournament at Harrenhall though.

[IceFire125]

There may not be enough proof within text that they were in open romance initially. However, I think hearing Rhaegar playing the harp was enough to soften the she-wolf's heart, moving her to tears and sowing the seeds of willingness in her heart, which were enough for her to not resist, but committed to go with him.

[BearQueen87]

Your d is possible, but more or less entirely unknown. It seems Elia probably knows of his plan/need for another child. Whether she is privy to the why, and whether she agreed and/or gave her blessing (reluctantly or enthusiastically) is not known at all.

I've gotten into my head that Elia knew about Rhaegar's plans for a third child and upon leaning that she was unable to bear more, did not object to Rhaegar's plans to pursure Lyanna. I don't think she's the "scorned wife" that characters/ some fans think

[UnmaskedLurker]

So your a, b and c above are just unnecessary. They assume Rhaegar is chasing Lyanna at Harrenhal, but the data we have doesn't support this. There is a clear, sensible, in character, reason for his actions there and none of the expected angst that should be present past the immediate moment if there were more to it than just that instant (note that a widely quoted SSM that says Dorne had some anger over Rhaegar's treatment of Elia refers to much later, well after he had actually been reported as abducting Lyanna).

Your d is possible, but more or less entirely unknown. It seems Elia probably knows of his plan/need for another child. Whether she is privy to the why, and whether she agreed and/or gave her blessing (reluctantly or enthusiastically) is not known at all.

@corbon--I have two questions: (1) We have reason to believe (and my recollection from your past posts is that you believe) that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna, but she went willingly (and they eventually married while in hiding). So we have hints in the text that some sort of interaction of a romantic nature took place between the two of them before the "abduction" occurred. So my first question is--how and when do you think this romantic interaction took place? (2) You state that Elia may not be privy to the "why" of Rhaegar's need for a third child. But it seems logical that she would know why. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy and in Dany's vision states to Elia that there must be another because the dragon has three heads. He makes this reference in a way that Elia would seem to have to know the back-story of what he means by that statement. So my second question is--isn't is clear that Elia knows exactly why Rhaegar feels that he needs a third child?

[corbon]

@corbon--I have two questions: (1) We have reason to believe (and my recollection from your past posts is that you believe) that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna, but she went willingly (and they eventually married while in hiding). So we have hints in the text that some sort of interaction of a romantic nature took place between the two of them before the "abduction" occurred. So my first question is--how and when do you think this romantic interaction took place?

Presumably there is some time in the 3 months or so between Aegon's birth and the 'abduction'. Its also possible that it was just an 'out' (from marriage to that boor Robert) for Lyanna initially, that she rather recklessly took based on her crush and deeper romantic feelings followed. We don't know, we simply don't have any clues.

All we do know is that 'all the smiles died' at Harrenhal, yet 9 months later Rhaegar is with Elia around the birth of Aegon and 3 months after that (give or take) Rhaegar 'abducts' Lyanna. But there's no indication of any further happenings or gossip from the naming of QoLaB when you would certainly expect there to be some. And the lack fits with what is known of Rhaegar's character and goals. So we have a dearth of information where we would expect to have something, and the thing that unexpected dearth points to fits with known characterisation and motivations, then we have a consistent pattern that makes sense.

(2) You state that Elia may not be privy to the "why" of Rhaegar's need for a third child. But it seems logical that she would know why. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy and in Dany's vision states to Elia that there must be another because the dragon has three heads. He makes this reference in a way that Elia would seem to have to know the back-story of what he means by that statement. So my second question is--isn't is clear that Elia knows exactly why Rhaegar feels that he needs a third child?

There is no necessity that Elia must know the backstory. Rhaegar is the one with the prophetic blood, history, and interest. It does not automatically follow that he explained it all to Elia. I would guess he did, if pushed, but we don't know that and it doesn't automatically follow from the data we have, contrary to your assumption that it does. Its entirely possibly she is just use to cryptic statements from him, for example.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thanks for your answers. I tend to think L and R must have had some contact in the intervening time, but you are correct that we have no real evidence one way or the other (other than that they did take off together). I also tend to think that Rhaegar would have either shared his theories with Elia or not make reference to them at all, but you are correct that some people are strange that way and might just make cryptic comments out of context. We cannot know for sure at this point (but the vision is at least mild evidence in favor).

[Alia Atreides]

Thanks for your answers. I tend to think L and R must have had some contact in the intervening time, but you are correct that we have no real evidence one way or the other (other than that they did take off together). I also tend to think that Rhaegar would have either shared his theories with Elia or not make reference to them at all, but you are correct that some people are strange that way and might just make cryptic comments out of context. We cannot know for sure at this point (but the vision is at least mild evidence in favor).

I think its a possibility we don't know how or why just yet. What we do know is that Lyanna was already ambivalent about not only marrying Robert but that he would actually change once they were married and not screw around on her, she was also pretty independent herself and perhaps she did not want the marriage that had been arranged for her... whatever DID indeed happen it was something that changed Ned's mind about everything when he found her in a pool of blood.

[Pigeon Pie]

Okay, looking at the recent replies, a question from the past resurfaces to my mind, and it might be common knowledge to you guys, but it was never clear to me, so sorry if it's boring and stupid.

Where exactly was Lyanna when the escape happened? Was she in Winterfell? Because Kingslanding - Winterfell - Dornish Marches is as long a trip as you can make in Westeros, so long I imagine the event would be known of and they'd be stopped while still on the road. Was she somewhere near the crown lands? Maybe Riverrun?

Also, how exactly did they interact during the year between the tourney and the escape, since of course they must have, to fall in love or to plan it all? Ravens seem to be the closest answer, but are raven messages alone enough for them to have feelings for each other, and did they really think they were safe? Assumimg Lyanna was in WF, maybe she should have considered that Luwin (or whoever was maester then) would probably think "why is this young girl exchanging messages with a stranger that seem super private" and he would feel it best for her to show them to her father or one of her brothers, in fear she was doing something rash which she was. and not to mention Pycelle who was a Lannister spy and opened the letters. So, ravens are not at all safe unless you 1. Can guarantee your maester win't open them before sending and 2. Can guarantee they won't be shot on their flight and someone will find your letters.

So, answers or speculations please?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We don't know where Lyanna was when she disappeared. Absolutely no clue :P

I personally don't think she was at Winterfell, because then Rickard would have found out before Brandon, definitely.

We know she wasn't at Riverrun, because it seems she and Catelyn, who was at Riverrun, had never met.

Storms End also seems a no, since it would be inappropriate for her to be there without any female companions present. In addition, there was no reason for her to be there, since Robert wasn't there either.

The Eyrie seems a big no, because then Robert would have reacted first.

Anything else south of KL seems a no as well, because we cannot connect her to any family there.