[BOOK SPOILERS] Fate of Jojen Reed

[acosta]

He said the broad strokes thing in 2011, I believe. Last summer was when they hammered out all the details and he told them what they needed to know because he knows they're going to pass him at this point.

[Kyrion]

The Singers didn't kill Jojen in cold blood, it was a sacrifice.

Remember, Jojen guided Bran to the wall, but after this their guide was Coldhands, Jojen by this point was no longer needed to get Bran to the cave. His purpose (that he knew, and I know Bloodraven will echo the same lines he did to Meera in this episiode in the books), was to be sacrificed for Bran.

[MarieAntoinette]

It seems to show that Jojen's primary role was in simply getting Bran to the cave, and that after he's pretty incidental (or Jojen paste is, God forbid, actually a thing and D&D said, "Fuck that, just kill him before they get to the cave").

I felt that the timing was slightly comical. They were all like "Look here is the cave, let's kill Jojen his useless now". I didn't like his death scene, it was underwhelming. In fact, I did not like the whole scene with skeleton fight and the stabbing which looked weird. If the wanted to kill him, they could have done better.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

man, i really hate how they spoil things book readers have pondered about for years

They didn't spoil it. Book Jojen can easily die on the end of A Dream of Spring (and it was obvious he will die young from A Clash of Kings). He can travel back to Greywater Watch and die there. And it will be totally cut of the series just because showrunners think no one cares about new characters.

I'm really sure we will met Howland Reed in books, but in TV-series his exposition will be given to estabilished character? And what then? Spoilers? Howland is not important? Nobody is important except few characters estabilished in first two seasons if you put it that way. But this is bloody wrong way, hear me now!

<blockquote>

So yes, they absolutely do know the importance of every character.</blockquote>

Yeah, every single character. But problem is there are main characters who are personally important in final account of things. And there are important secondary characters. They can be changed, they can be moved, they can be cut or merged. And important things that happened to main characters will happen anyway just by someone else.

Also: I really don't believe them they went through all characters. Just the main ones. That's enough.

[Deadwood]

Read the full interview. Here's how Benioff described it, emphasis added:

So yes, they absolutely do know the importance of every character.

Have you the link please?

[Janicia]

The way leaf shouted "come with me, or die", seemed a little forceful and harsh, and the way Jojen was specifically targeted all aroused suspicion. The scene was very specifically choreographed:

1) Jojen is attacked

2) Meera tries to save him- then more wights appear to get to Jojen

3) Meera fights them off- more wights appear.

4) Bran wargs Hodor to save them. More wights appear

5) Hodor is attacked because he is preventing the wights from killing Jojen

5) Bran is attacked - this forces Hobran to consider stopping coming to Jojen's aid and enabling the wights to kill Jojen infront of a weirwood with his blood leaking into the ground.

Result? Leaf "saves" them all and gains their trust with the exception of Jojen who was the guide, who had fulfilled his purpose, and who perhaps, needed sacrificing in some way for the benefit of the group in a non-creepy, Jojen-paste way which may have freaked out viewers. The band are more willing to accept the creepiness of Bloodraven, and they don't have a choice now because they know they will be killed if they leave. Without the wight attack, they may have got cold feet, or been less willing to trust BR.

Bran is left with a halfwit he can warg, and a girl he can...well, you get the drift. Considering Bloodraven could surely see the group arrive through the eyes of the weirwood before they travelled into the show-ring of hell, Leaf was pretty tardy coming to their aid which is crazy when you think about how close Bran appeared to come to death on BR's doorstep. I can't imagine the Great Other was able to have corpses buried in the show on Bloodraven's doorstep without BR's knowledge, or suspicion that it could be a trap, and that the best BR could do is have one COTF arrive, late, despite having eyes everywhere.

So the absence of blue eyes, and the skeletal appearance of the wights in my mind would make me suspect the COTF more watching the show version.

At the very least, it seemed like the COTF weren't upset about deaths of non-Bran members of the party. Which is practical given how scarce food is up there. They can't kill Bran's people in front of him and expect to have his cooperation, but if his people happen to die because the COTF were slow answering the door...

[Janicia]

Meera became a much more interesting person to me the minute she slit Jojen's throat. She could be a wildcard in Bran's story - stuck in a cave on the edge of the world she has little to lose, and she's always had strong opinions.

[fuem]

Pity i was looking forward to a jojen human platter.

So much for the weirdwood seeds

[binga]

Maybe David and Dan just want us to be surprised when in the next book we get a serving of Jojen Pasta.

[hallam]

Read the full interview. Here's how Benioff described it, emphasis added:

So yes, they absolutely do know the importance of every character.

At least to the extent that GRRM knows it.

I rather suspect that the reason they only knew about the outcomes in broad strokes at the start is that is all GRRM had. Its not like a book grows from three books to 7+ if it is being plotted like Suzan Collins did the Hunger Games (take a look at the structure there, three books of three parts with three elements of three chapters and something important happens at the end of each).

At this point B&W know the characters as well as anyone, they are effectively working as series authors with GRRM. Hopefully getting the plot worked out will help him write the books.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

We know no such thing. The showrunners can and do change major plot points and characters because they can. They do it all the time. They've consolidated characters, added characters, killed characters that are still alive in the books, added subplots, removed subplots, reshuffled events to change the pacing of the show, etc. This is really no different than any of those things.

The fact is we have absolutely no idea what kind of role Jojen will play in the story moving forward in the books. No idea at all. The show doing something a particular way says nothing about what GRRM may or may not be doing. D&D are not required to translate GRRM's story directly. Nor are they required to adhere to any particular plot point if they don't want to. And they've been doing this since the very first episode of the series. Why would Jojen be any different?

So then there could still be a Stark heir in a Westerling belly? Pyp or Grenn could could become the next Lord Commander? I mean that's the logic right? That the show has no bearing on the future of the books?

[Viridiana]

I always figured Jojen would die one way or another, but i wonder more what is in store for Meera now.

[Firiel Hiren]

Jojen will now go into the tree and be a more direct and personal guide for Bran as he is learning how to be a greenseer. The books had a lot of the CotF and Bloodraven asking what Bran saw when he came back but if the show wants they can now just have Jojen appear and show Bran stuff without having to explain he is a ghost or make Bloodraven move around or be younger or use a talking crow. He will be the cliché ghost spirit guide.

[LordStoneheart]

So then there could still be a Stark heir in a Westerling belly? Pyp or Grenn could could become the next Lord Commander? I mean that's the logic right? That the show has no bearing on the future of the books?

Yes she could be pregnant. Her fate is different than NotJeyne's and will be in a future book, GRRM confirmed. Pyp or Grenn definitely could. I doubt it, but its possible. The show has no bearing on the books other than being a motivation for GRRM to write faster, as he claimed on Conan.

[Janicia]

Yes she could be pregnant. Her fate is different than NotJeyne's and will be in a future book, GRRM confirmed. Pyp or Grenn definitely could. I doubt it, but its possible. The show has no bearing on the books other than being a motivation for GRRM to write faster, as he claimed on Conan.

Even if she's pregnant in the books, I don't think it will matter much before the story ends. The books could end with [Jon or whoever ruling the north as regent and guardian of Robb's baby], but that's not functionally much different from [Jon or whoever ruling the north]. Or baby could die.

[Envie]

I always wondered how they'd reconcile diversions in the story that don't match the books, especially the fact they killed off Robb's wife when in the books she's alive. Doesn't matter whether she's pregnant or not. Even though yes, technically the show can divert from the book - all that means is we're shown which characters are vital to the endgame and which are not. Apparently Jojen is not vital to the endgame story, nor is Jeyne Westerling, or Pyp and Grenn, or any of the other secondary characters they've killed off.

[Lord Damian]

This makes the Jojen Paste theory stronger, actually.

I am a strong supporter of Jojen Paste.. not because of any need to see such a gruesome thing or any dislike of Jojen. He's one of my favorites actually... But the evidence is all there. Bran's last chapter is written just like the RW chapter. Something dark definitely happened there.

Also, Apple makes a great point, one that made me quite relieved when I watched it tonight. Meera is obviously needed for something! That makes my heart leap higher.

Meera is ?NIsa Nisa - Bran is the PWWP?

[Snowisnobastard]

It seemed to me that the finale didnt necessarily debunk the jojen paste theory, if anything it may have reinforced it through whitewashing. Bare with me here...

In the novels, bloodraven is borderline "evil" looking, he barely had any skin left on his face, there's a root growing out of his eye and through his cheek, and various other roots growing in and out of him. My theory on why they made him look more human was so unsullied did not get a bad first impression if the guy, if they had kept his appearance the same as in the books most people would think "oh shit, bran just wandered into westeros sauron's lair.

Keeping this in mind it is my belief that they whitewashed jojens sacrifice for bran so as not to turn viewers away from liking his character, whether he would have known he was eating jojen or not I believe a lot of people would have been out off by any form of cannibalism, and thus not feel sympathy for that character anymore.

I'm not saying that the whitewashing was the right approach to take but it really seems like that's what's going on to me.

The fact that they kept tyrions nose after the battle if black water shows that they are not beyond a shallow whitewashing or two. I don't know about anyone else but I would still like Peter dinklage as a character in the show without a nose. Just because some American are too shallow to like a character because they are maimed, ugly, or otherwise abnormal doesn't mean that everyone will be.

Personally I'd love it if they did away with the whitewashing, maybe I'm alone here.

[protar]

For me this makes Jojenpaste that much more likely. Rather than have Jojen die in an implicit and very dark way, they have him die a bit more heroically with his role in the books fulfilled. I had Jojen pegged as already dead by the end of ADWD anyway, so for me the more interesting thing is Meera's survival. They could easily have had her stay with her brother until the end but instead she lives on. She's got some role to play it seems.

[Alauda]

Have they even done the Tournament at Harrenhall and the Knight with the Laughing Tree on the Show? Will they use Bran and his visions in Season five to give us LOST like flashbacks? I'm wondering if they have ditched Howland Reed story from the Books? Will some woman come up to Jon Snow instead and say Darth Vader like and say "Jon, I am your Mother. Search your feeelllings you know its true."