Martin seemingly confirms that Shae was planted by Varys

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You are going much too far back when pinpointing when Varys came up with the scheme. Varys only reacted to the circumstances he was given. Once Jaime forced him to free Tyrion, that signaled his end as Master of Whisperers. It was then, and only then, when he began plotting to see how freeing Tyrion could be used to his advantage.

The same applies here. Varys reacts according to circumstances. He was not plotting on putting a Blackfyre on the throne from the very beginning. It is very likely he started simply wanting to take the Targaryens down. The idea to put Aegon on the throne probably came much later, after the sack of King's Landing certainly, when he judged the circumstances right to pull it off.

That's exactly what I am saying. Varys doesn't have that much power. He goes along with what he has at the moment.

It was Jaime's idea to free Tyrion, not Varys. Varys planting Shae only works if Varys was sending Shae every night to Tywin, waiting for the night when Jaime decides to free Tyrion with a ship ready to leave. And even so, Tyrion going to Tywin happened after Jaime confessed about Tysha. The only thing Varys could have done was sending Tyrion away, but the murder of Tywin was something way beyond his control.

[The Sleeper]

I don't like the whole "Varys is omniscient" thing. He'd have to be a magician to be inside of people's minds in order to make them do very specific things. LF, I can understand: he literally whispers to people's ears, like he did with Joffrey. But Varys, for this to work, would have to convince Jaime (who conveniently simply forgot Varys talked to him), first to release Tyrion and then, to tell him about Tysha, and Tywin (really?) to do something.This is the same argument used to believe that Varys was planning to put a Blackfyre on the throne all along: for that to work he surely had to control decisions made by Aerys, Tywin, Rhaegar, the Mountain, Elia, Rhaenys, Pycelle, Brandon and Robert Baratheon himself, and during the time of the current events, he needed to be inside the heads of Dany, Viserys, Drogo, Jorah, Tyrion, Aegon and a lot of people in Meereen.Littlefinger plants chaos and doubt, and take what he can. Varys adapts himself and carry on with what he had. If Aegon is fake, it's more easy for me to believe he realised he could pass a kid for the real one instead of planning Rebellions and betrayals so real Aegon and his parents and family could die. Too much a chance to failure there, and his plan didn't fail so far. In the same way, Varys can't see the future, he couldn't foreseen, for instance, that Jaime would told Tyrion something so painful that he would need to face his father. What Varys could have done or said to cause the same effect on Tyrion? That he knew Tywin was fucking Shae? Tyrion could have reacted worst and killed him right there.

There is no need for the entire thing to be planned. Varys probably wanted to get Tyrion out independently. Jaime coming and threatening to do it was a happy coincidence. He saw the state Tyrion was in and saw the opportunity to make the night more productive. He probably knew that Shae would be fucking Tywin which would have added insult to injury. No need for omniscience. Just ceasing an opportunity.

At worst he would have gotten Tywin, his escaped kingslayer and a prostitute all in the same room in the middla of the night. Who knows what people would have made of that? The possibilities for scandal are endless.

[SeanF]

You are going much too far back when pinpointing when Varys came up with the scheme. Varys only reacted to the circumstances he was given. Once Jaime forced him to free Tyrion, that signaled his end as Master of Whisperers. It was then, and only then, when he began plotting to see how freeing Tyrion could be used to his advantage.

off.

If so, then he was improvising. The timescale from Jaime kidnapping Varys, to Tyrion killing his father, can't have been more than a couple of hours.

[Voice]

For those interested, see here.

Key quote:

That sounds pretty definitive to me.

No, he's just saying that the role of Varys in all this must be considered when trying to guess whether or not Tywin knew about Shae. I think George is telling us that of course Varys would have told Tywin about her, particularly once the trial started, and that she was the same camp follower from before.

[Faint]

It was Jaime's idea to free Tyrion, not Varys. Varys planting Shae only works if Varys was sending Shae every night to Tywin, waiting for the night when Jaime decides to free Tyrion with a ship ready to leave. And even so, Tyrion going to Tywin happened after Jaime confessed about Tysha. The only thing Varys could have done was sending Tyrion away, but the murder of Tywin was something way beyond his control.

Yeah, the title to the thread is not really accurate as to what I was getting at, but that is the way this entire line of inquiry has been termed on this forum, so I went with it for simplicity's sake. I think it more appropriate to say Varys planted the scene.

He knew, undoubtedly from his little birds, that Shae had been fucking Tywin and he wanted to use that information to his advantage. But the only way it works, is if he can somehow ensure that Tywin is not in the room when Tyrion enters. He cannot honestly expect Tyrion to fight off both his father and Shae at the same time; not without a weapon at least.

So if he manipulated anything, it was in making sure that Tywin was not there, but close by, when Tyrion came up the tunnel.

Although, I suppose an argument could be made that he had Shae working for him and spying on Tywin to that purpose, so he knew she would be there. And if you go with that theory, you might even think that it was Shae who slipped Tywin the laxative (albeit, not knowing the purpose behind it).

[HexMachina]

I wouldnt say that is necessarily confirmed, as it could simply be that Varys ensured Tyrion would go up and kill his father (as implied by the text). As to finding out more in later books, it could occur when/if Aegon ascends the throne, and wrt whores, we got a tidbit in a winds of winter chapter that

Tywin visited Lys, a city renowned for its pleasure houses

so it could be to do with that

[Faint]

I wouldnt say that is necessarily confirmed, as it could simply be that Varys ensured Tyrion would go up and kill his father (as implied by the text).

Yes, but it comes to the same thing. How exactly did he ensure that? He sent Tyrion up there without a weapon and, going off his comments after the incident, he did so even knowing that Shae would be there too.

As has been mentioned before on this thread and by many others throughout the years, Varys is not omnipotent or omnipresent. It is plainely ridiculous to think he was trusting in luck when he sent Tyrion up there and that everything just happened to work according to plan.

Shae just happened to be there; there just happened to be a crossbow lying around; and Tywin just happened to be in the privy.

Everything was too neat, as they say.

[The Sleeper]

@ Faint. It was in the middle of the night. Tywin would either be fucking Shae or sleeping, but in any case not combat ready.

[HexMachina]

No, I didn't really make clear in my post. I think he knew Shae would be there, but wasn't responsible for her being there if that makes sense. He simply listened to the Whispers, ensured Tyrion would be in a position to get into the TotH and let Tyrion's anger do the rest

[Harle The Handsome]

I could have sworn this was covered by a thread a long time ago. Our best theory was that Bronn took Shae from a knight that was acquiring her for Tywin. That was how Tywin knew Tyrion was keeping a camp follower.

As for Varys' part in all of this, I'd assume he was talking about how Varys set up events leading to Tywin's death. Why did Jaime decide now was the time to tell Tyrion the truth about Tysha? While reading it, I saw words attributed to Jaime, but felt this was a result of Varys playing with Jaime's conscience. I imagine Varys telling Jaime, "I will do this for you, but Tyrion will always be a broken man as long as he thinks Tysha was a whore you hired. This will be the last time you ever see him. He must know the truth."

"You knew?" Replied a stunned Jaime.

Varys knew how Tyrion would respond. When reading Varys' pleas to Tyrion in the hidden passageways of the Red Keep, I immediately thought of Gene Wilder's pleas from Willie Wonka, "Stop. Don't. Come back." He knew what was coming. it was exactly what he wanted.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

@ Faint. It was in the middle of the night. Tywin would either be fucking Shae or sleeping, but in any case not combat ready.

If he was fucking Shae, either Tyrion attacks Shae first or Tywin. If he attacks Tywin first, Shae screams or escapes and people come. If he attacks her first, Tywin manages to neutralise him and still calls for people.

If Tywin was alone and sleeping, it's nor purpose at all. What Tyrion wanted wasn't to kill him but to face him, to know if what Jaime told him was the truth. Tywin in the privy was a vulnerable position, but Tywin in bed isn't. He can call for his guards from there and Tyrion, even after killing him, is done.

[Danelle]

As for Varys' part in all of this, I'd assume he was talking about how Varys set up events leading to Tywin's death. Why did Jaime decide now was the time to tell Tyrion the truth about Tysha? While reading it, I saw words attributed to Jaime, but felt this was a result of Varys playing with Jaime's conscience. I imagine Varys telling Jaime, "I will do this for you, but Tyrion will always be a broken man as long as he thinks Tysha was a whore you hired. This will be the last time you ever see him. He must know the truth."

"You knew?" Replied a stunned Jaime.

Are you suggesting that Varys urged Jaime to reveal the truth about Tysha?

I don't think so. If anything, Tyrion would be happier if he continued to believe in the lie.

His DWD chapters are basically about him dealing with the reality that Jaime betrayed him.

As for Jaime, he was never comfortable about the incident with Tysha.

I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act.[11]

That was the kindness that Jaime never did. In his SOS chapters Jaime is sick of lies and deceits, and that continues in FFC and DWD as well.

He wanted to save Tyrion and he did it.

He also wanted to tell Tyrion the truth, because Jaime had changed and was no longer playing by Tywin's rules.

He had waited in the eunuch's chambers that night, when at last he had decided not to let his little brother die. As he waited, he had sharpened his dagger with one hand, taking a queer comfort from the scrape-scrape-scrape of steel on stone. At the sound of footsteps he stood beside the door. Varys entered in a wash of powder and lavender. Jaime stepped out behind him, kicked him in the back of the knee, knelt on his chest, and shoved the knife up under his soft white chin, forcing his head up.

"Why, Lord Varys," he'd said pleasantly, "fancy meeting you here."

"Ser Jaime?" Varys panted. "You frightened me."

"I meant to." When he twisted the dagger, a trickle of blood ran down the blade. "I was thinking you might help me pluck my brother from his cell before Ser Ilyn lops his head off. It is an ugly head, I grant you, but he only has the one."

"Yes . . . well . . . if you would . . . remove the blade . . . yes, gently, as it please my lord, gently, oh, I'm pricked . . ." The eunuch touched his neck and gaped at the blood on his fingers. "I have always abhorred the sight of my own blood."

"You'll have more to abhor shortly, unless you help me." Varys struggled to a sitting position. "Your brother . . . if the Imp should vanish unaccountably from his cell, q-questions would be asked. I would f-fear for my life . . ."

"Your life is mine. I do not care what secrets you know. If Tyrion dies, you will not long outlive him, I promise you."

"Ah." The eunuch sucked the blood off his fingers. "You ask a dreadful thing . . . to loose the Imp who slew our lovely king. Or is it that you believe him innocent?"

"Innocent or guilty," Jaime had said, like the fool he was, "a Lannister pays his debts." The words had come so easy.

Doesn't seem that Varys had enough time to discuss Tysha with Jaime, and even if he did, how was he suppossed to know the exact details and what really had happenned there?

[The Sleeper]

If he was fucking Shae, either Tyrion attacks Shae first or Tywin. If he attacks Tywin first, Shae screams or escapes and people come. If he attacks her first, Tywin manages to neutralise him and still calls for people.If Tywin was alone and sleeping, it's nor purpose at all. What Tyrion wanted wasn't to kill him but to face him, to know if what Jaime told him was the truth. Tywin in the privy was a vulnerable position, but Tywin in bed isn't. He can call for his guards from there and Tyrion, even after killing him, is done.

You're thinking with hindsight and that Varys was in Tyrion's head.

Tyrion himself was not thinking at this point. What Varys knows or needs to know is that Tyrion had just learned that his father had had his first wife gangraped and that at that moment is in bed with Shae. Violence seems a very likely, no?

[Ygrain]

Several thoughts here:

- Tywin was probably the Hand who had the secret tunnel at Chataya's built, so Varys knew about his secret fondness of whores

- Varys was paying Shae to spy on Tyrion - that's why she kept insisting on Tyrion sharing his worries with her so that she could "help" him

- Varys planted Shae on Tywin, perhaps to compromise him in the future if need be, or planning to off him just like he did with Kevan and using Shae as a scapegoat, or perhaps murder both and frame Tyrion - and then Jaime served him an opportunity to do so on a silver platter.

[Lord Varys]

The planted thing makes Varys indeed into some kind of super villain. He would have to

- get to Shae and convince her to let her take him into Tywin's bed and take a sleeping potion there (the option that he/the little birds carried her unconscious through the walls is ridiculous).

- make sure Tywin was on the privy a really long time. I understand that he could have poisoned him, but are we really to believe that Tywin would sit hours and hours on the privy to no avail? I can see him doing that for half and hour to an hour, but then he'll most likely realize that it is futile and go back into his chambers.

- ensure that no servants/guardsmen etc. would come into the room during that time.

I'd rather assume Varys smuggled Shae into Tywin's bed on the latter's orders, and thus knew that she was there.

As to the other stuff:

Jaime most certainly did not force Varys to free Tyrion. He was making plans for that himself, and let Jaime 'surprise and force' him, so that he could mess with Jaime's head as well. After all, under those circumstance Jaime would also be an accomplice in Tywin's murder.

[The Kinkslayer]

It is well known that Varys is a wizard so he definitely planted Shae, poisoned Tywin, warged Moonboy to fuck Cercei and is paying Lady Whiskers to spy on Ser Pounce.

[chrisdaw]

Could simply be Shae was working for Varys.

[The Sleeper]

It seems to me that people are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

There is a fact that tells us that Varys had already made plans to smuggle Tyrion out of the Red Keep. That is the ship that carried Tyrion, a convicted kingslayer, to Illyrio. This could not have been arranged at the last minute. It had to have been arranged beforehand. His reason? To drive a wedge between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. We know this because of the ancient Reach coins, planted in "Rugen's" chamber. This implicates the Tyrells in Tyrion's escape as well as Joffrey's murder. He also gets a lawful heir to the Rock, who would absolutely hate his family and potentially a valuable councilor for Aegon and Dany.

So where does Jaime fit into his plans? He doesn't. Both of them simply want to get Tyrion out for their own reasons. Now as Varys hears Jaime's confession and sees the state of mind Tyrion is in, he sees the opportunity to expand on his original plan. He would know that Shae is with Tywin, because spying on people is what he does. It might even be that Tywin acted like Tyrion and had Varys deliver Shae to his chamber. In any case putting Tyrion, Tywin and Shae in the same room cannot end well and while Varys may lose Tyrion the part of his plan to make it seem like Olenna Tyrell was behind Tyrion's escape and by implication the Purple Wedding cannot be compromised. So why not point Tyrion to his father's bedroom and see what happens?

[Ygrain]

It seems to me that people are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

There is a fact that tells us that Varys had already made plans to smuggle Tyrion's escape. That is the ship that carried Tyrion, a convicted kingslayer, to Illyrio. This could not have been arranged at the last minute. It had to have been arranged beforehand. His reason? To drive a wedge between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. We know this because of the ancient Reach coins, planted in "Rugen's" chamber. This implicates the Tyrells in Tyrion's escape as well as Joffrey's murder. He also gets a lawful heir to the Rock, who would absolutely hate his family and potentially a valuable councilor for Aegon and Dany.

So where does Jaime fit into his plans? He doesn't. Both of them simply want to get Tyrion out for their own reasons. Now as Varys hears Jaime's confession and sees the state of mind Tyrion is in, he sees the opportunity to expand on his original plan. He would know that Tysha is with Tywin, because spying on people is what he does. It might even be that Tywin acted like Tyrion and had Varys deliver Shae to his chamber. In any case putting Tyrion, Tywin and Shae in the same room cannot end well and while Varys may lose Tyrion the part of his plan to make it seem like Olenna Tyrell was behind Tyrion's escape and by implication the Purple Wedding cannot be compromised. So why not point Tyrion to his father's bedroom and see what happens?

True enough. The question is, did Varys plan all along to push Tyrion into murdering Tywin, or would he have taken care of it himself? Tyrion would have been blamed, anyway.

[Mithras]

As a believer of Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory, I think Varys was determined to kill Tywin no matter what because him dying from poison would take unwanted attention to Dorne, which is central to fAegon. He played all the reverse psychology he could on Tyrion. He placed the crossbow reachable by a chest. If Tyrion would refuse to go upstairs, Varys would return and kill Tywin himself. Of course, Tyrion would be blamed for this as well because he was condemned as a kinslayer already and he went missing. The chest under the crossbow would provide another evidence for the imp’s intervention. And he did have the reasons and motive to kill Tywin.