(spoilers) Skeletons without blue eyes?

[igrewupinKL]

Or given us more mammoths.

Or a wrighted bear with it's arm burnt off - how cool would that bear have looked on screen?

Both of these things would have been in line with the tone set by the books and show before those god awful skeletons.

Can you tell how much I hate them? They almost ruined the show for me - now I just try and pretend they aren't there, that it is all in Jojen's head as he is getting turned into a paste, or something :)

BTW - I agree with the idea that, in both the books and show, wrights have to have eyes and cold preserved meat.

Did anyone else notice the stupid speedy skeletons screech? FFS - wrights don't screech and bones without lungs could not possibly screech, where the hell is the air coming from?

I didn't enjoy it either, as you said the tone wasn't right. If it was a stand alone scene not in this series i might be okay with it but for ASOIAF, nope

:cheers:

[JonBranRickon]

Easily the worst episode of the series. The skeletons have no place in the show.

[sj4iy]

It may not have been my favorite scene, but come on. People are arguing about which states of 'deadness' is appropriate for wight-hood. It's fantasy. The fact that dead people can move AT ALL is fantastical.

Look at the book- Cotter Pyke writes to tell Jon that there are 'dead things in the water'- do you honestly believe these 'dead things' are intact and whole? Because I don't. Not with what happens to dead things in the sea. If they can move (which, apparently, they can), then I see no problem with skeletons moving.

[King Tyrion I]

It may not have been my favorite scene, but come on. People are arguing about which states of 'deadness' is appropriate for wight-hood. It's fantasy. The fact that dead people can move AT ALL is fantastical.

Look at the book- Cotter Pyke writes to tell Jon that there are 'dead things in the water'- do you honestly believe these 'dead things' are intact and whole? Because I don't. Not with what happens to dead things in the sea. If they can move (which, apparently, they can), then I see no problem with skeletons moving.

:agree: Thank you for your words of wisdom.

It wasn't my favorite part of the episode either.

[sj4iy]

:agree: Thank you for your words of wisdom.

It wasn't my favorite part of the episode either.

Anytime XD My problem was the tone of it than what actually happened in the scene. It just seemed jarring.

But the book doesn't contradict this scene at all. Look at what Sam says:

"...Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

Clearly, Sam says nothing at all about the state of decomposition they must achieve in order to be 'exempt' from wight-hood...he says "So long as the beast is dead". The story has given absolutely no indication that a skeleton CAN'T become a wight. It simply says "They must be burned". BURNING is the key element, not state of decomposition.

Of course, I think this entire conversation is silly- "how dead does a dead man have to be before he can't come back as undead?"

[King Tyrion I]

Yeah, you're right about that.

I had no problems with the scene. And right now I think it makes even more sense with that Samwell quote.

[JonBranRickon]

Anytime XD My problem was the tone of it than what actually happened in the scene. It just seemed jarring.

But the book doesn't contradict this scene at all. Look at what Sam says:

"...Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

Clearly, Sam says nothing at all about the state of decomposition they must achieve in order to be 'exempt' from wight-hood...he says "So long as the beast is dead". The story has given absolutely no indication that a skeleton CAN'T become a wight. It simply says "They must be burned". BURNING is the key element, not state of decomposition.

Of course, I think this entire conversation is silly- "how dead does a dead man have to be before he can't come back as undead?"

While Sam may be right, if that is the case then the Northerners would most likely burn every corpse rather than risk every dead person that ever lived rising. So it think not.

[sj4iy]

While Sam may be right, if that is the case then the Northerners would most likely burn every corpse rather than risk every dead person that ever lived rising. So it think not.

...and everybody dies with someone around to burn their corpse?

Plus it's been 8000 years- the Others had been reduced to fairy tales that people no longer believed in.

[igrewupinKL]

why burn bodies, when according to you, the bones can just be turned into wights.

[ummester]

Of course, I think this entire conversation is silly- "how dead does a dead man have to be before he can't come back as undead?"

yes, it's kind of silly, when you look at it like that. I mean it's all fantasy, right?

But I don't think that any of the raised dead in ASoIaF are undead, or traditional zombies.

There isn't too much difference between Thoros raising Beric and Others/White Walkers raising wrights - except blue eyes and purpose.

The reanimated bodies in ASoIaF/GoTs require the appropriate elements to function. Without muscle a skeleton can't do anything. Without sinew, muscle leaves the bones. Wrights are cold preserved, so the bodies don't deteriorate but they still need their parts to function.

The reason for burning them is to make sure they can't function. How do you kill a dead person? You can't, they are dead - duh. What you can do is incapacitate the body so that it can't function. A skeleton is non functioning.

[sj4iy]

why burn bodies, when according to you, the bones can just be turned into wights.

It's not about the bones- it's about the fire. Creatures made of ice are bringing these things back. Fire breaks the magic. It makes sense.

[ummester]

It's not about the bones- it's about the fire. Creatures made of ice are bringing these things back. Fire breaks the magic. It makes sense.

So we can have floating wrighted skulls in the ASoIaF universe?

If it's all about the magic, why use a body at all? Why not just have this Xmen kind of fight where Iceman or whatever uses his powers against the fire dude?

[sj4iy]

So we can have floating wrighted skulls in the ASoIaF universe?

If it's all about the magic, why use a body at all? Why not just have this Xmen kind of fight where Iceman or whatever uses his powers against the fire dude?

Othor's disembodied hand still moved. I would see no reason a disembodied head wouldn't.

Of course, there's not much a disembodied head is going to do to you.

As far as your question goes- ask Martin. It was his idea to include iceman-controlled reanimated corpses, not mine. Why do they move? Magic. Why do they not rot? Magic. How can men made of ice exist? Magic. See the pattern here? Criticizing the show because some corpses were more decomposed than others and still moved when everything in the books comes down to "magic" is silly.

[igrewupinKL]

meh, my only criticism of this scene is the fact that it just looked ridiculous, wasn't in line with the fantastical elements of the show previous to this scene

pair that with how ridiculous that knife going into jojen looked, how the COTF looked, their fireballs and this made for one of my most hated scenes of the season.

It's not about the excuses we can make about the ice magic working on skeletons or not. As far as i'm concerned GRRM hasn't used skeletons as wights but absence of skeletons in his work doesn't mean it can't happen. But i'm pretty sure he wouldn't use them, because doesn't suit his theme at all.

[sj4iy]

meh, my only criticism of this scene is the fact that it just looked ridiculous, wasn't in line with the fantastical elements of the show previous to this scene

pair that with how ridiculous that knife going into jojen looked, how the COTF looked, their fireballs and this made for one of my most hated scenes of the season.

It's not about the excuses we can make about the ice magic working on skeletons or not. As far as i'm concerned GRRM hasn't used skeletons as wights but absence of skeletons in his work doesn't mean it can't happen. But i'm pretty sure he wouldn't use them, because doesn't suit his theme at all.

I didn't particularly care for the scene myself because the tone was jarring compared to the rest of the episode. It went full fantasy mode and just didn't fit right after two funeral scenes. But I see not reason to criticize whether it could happen or not considering how vaguely magic is defined in the series.

[Arya Targaryen]

I've never complained about this scene, but I understand the problems with it. The books make a point about the "bones remember"-thing, and once, IIRC Summer grabbed and ate a wight-hand that moved and struggled, until all the flesh was eaten and then "the bone remembered that it was dead" or something along this line. So basically the corpses can be wightified until they have flesh on them, because the ice-magic effects the flesh, not the bone. Once the hand decomposed (the one Thorne took to KL), it stopped moving.

So this sceleton-attack clearly contradicts the books, and the way magic is decribed and works in the books. But the show is not the books, we have to learn to deal with it. :dunno:

[Beric Dondarion]

Imagine the battles between CotF and the First Men, if CotF were able to cast fireballs with such (HBO) ease.

[ummester]

The scene had fantasy elements of an inconsistent, adventure fantasy tone and threw too much at the viewer too quickly.

Bran finding Bloodraven in the books didn't have a sunrise sitting above the tree - it was dark and uphill through snow from which standard, fleshy cold imbued wrights sprang. No fireballs and just dialogue saying the entrance to Bloodraven's realm was magically guarded against wrights - no skeletons running into it and exploding. There was no reason to change it, other than some foolish director thought he could make it better and actually made it worse.

I'm not saying all of GRRMs fantasy elements are perfectly consistent or logical. But I am wondering why, if something ain't broke, what would make some deluded idiot think they should change it or do their own thing with it? There was enough tension and action in the scene as it was in the book - it didn't need any ridiculous embellishment.

Some things in the show have been an improvement, I think - the way the character of Tywin is introduced and represented, overall. Show Cersie, I feel, is also an improvement on book Cersie. The Battle of Blackwater, in the show, I think, was improved - it simplified it, making it easier to digest, and got all the major points across.

[Beric175]

I Wonder whether people will put together that the selettons could very well come from Inside the cave, seeing as there are so many bones on the bottom of the cave. the only question is why Bloodraven would want to separate jojen from Bran? To influence him no doubt. Bran the Destroyer could be likelier now.

[FreeParking]

I Wonder whether people will put together that the selettons could very well come from Inside the cave, seeing as there are so many bones on the bottom of the cave. the only question is why Bloodraven would want to separate jojen from Bran? To influence him no doubt. Bran the Destroyer could be likelier now.

It is also interesting that those skeletons came up at a very convenient place (right before the entrance of the tree), the COTF arrived at a very convenient time (right before they got overwhelmed), and the skeletons shattered at a very convenient place (right inside the entrance to the tree). I doubt there is any shield that protects the lair. Bloodraven was controlling the skeletons to kill off Jojen and to make the remaining people want to stay in the cave. "Come with me or die with him." That COTF didn't care if Meera lived or not I am betting.