Balanced review of Stannis [Book Spoilers]

[Kyoshi]

No-one saw any Stannis flaws in The Watchers on the Wall, because Stannis wasn't in that episode - He was in the follow-up The Children ;) But I know what you mean, I thought Stannis' arrival was great and the interaction with Mance and Jon Snow was really promising. I always like the way book Stannis seems like a fish out of water in the North - we know he naturally shuns the notion of 'connecting' and building affinity. But while in his perspective the northmen are subjects who owe him allegiance, he shows willingness to take counsel from Jon Snow. I think they'll bring that to life quite well in season 5.

My bad. Meant to say The Children. And The Watchers on the Wall was better because Stannis wasn't in it :-)

But ultimately Nero was "the bad guy" wasn't he? Hitler was also very popular among the nazis, as was Idi Amin among his supporters.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

My bad. Meant to say The Children. And The Watchers on the Wall was better because Stannis wasn't in it :-)

Lol, a cheeky rejoinder!

[Benjaario Starkharis]

New to the forum (first post). So hi everyone!

I thought that we saw his best traits in the prologue to ACOK which was that he denied to bend the truth in any way. He had practically no chance of winning the throne with his 5000 men, yet he still called rob and renly traitors who he would not negotiate with simply because the throne was his by rights and they were traitors. he was straight and honest from the beginning and also didnt try to please people in any way. in the first davos chapter stannis tells the maester to take out the "beloved" word from the letter he sent to everyone ("my beloved brother robert") simply because it was a lie. i just thought from the very beginning that this guy has massive balls and he thinks that whats true is true. period. and he seemed very just as well. renly on the other hand stabbed his bro in the back so to speak just because he thought stan was not liked or smthng. and when stannis said to catelyn that Robs turn will come, i again was amazed by his balls: he still has 5000 men, is about to face renly, and tells cat that rob will die. and he was right: rob was a traitor who made the north independent and went to war. dont get me wrong i liked him and the starks and was sad at the red wedding, but stan the man knew he was a traitor and said it.

and btw im a stannis fan.

Welcome to the board!

The ACOK prologue worked differently for me. I disliked Stannis immediately. He seemed like a major dick and the way he treated Cressen kinda pissed me off.

[brakeb4bend]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I don't really agree that the pronounced degree of inflexibility he displayed in ACOK could be construed as one of his "best traits" -

I see what youre getting at. What I meant was that it was the trait I started liking immediately. Perhaps its not a good trait in terms of holding a throne or so on, but its the trait that made me his fan. Also imo a leader can be good or bad, whether or not he is liked. A good leader can be misliked a lot by his lords and other people, or a bad leader can be liked. I think in the 18th century or so France had Louis the 16th or something who was really a nice guy and everyone loved him, but he was an awful king in terms of running the country so he was eventually beheaded. Imo stannis would be a really good king because he is fair and just, but it might be that he would be killed by the lords because they dont like him.

As to the "stannis is portayed as a villain/hero in the show" thing, I dont really mind. Ive never seen him as a good guy, nor a bad guy. Imo there are good guys like jon snow and tyrion in the books, and bad guys like the white walkers and cersei, but I really dont know where stannis sits in. All i know is that he is awesome. Ive always been disappointed in how he is in the show (book stannis is so much more ownage) but I dont mind if he is made the bad guy or the good guy.

Btw Nero was emperor of rome.

[stannisismyking]

The prologue from ACOK is my favourite chapter of the entire series and I take something new from it each time I read it. It really like the way the presentation of th oppressive atmosphere on Dragonstone, and even down to the way Stannis is physically described himself. I think what grabbed me the most is the air of sadness - Cressen loves Stannis but he also pities him for his past and his present and his possible future (which involves him going up against his own younger brother in the battlefield) . Going forward though I found it was actually a bit unfair on Stannis - I don't think he would think his life is that terrible (even if he was a simmering resentment regarding a number of different things!). I don't think he'd appreciate Cressen's pity. But their relationship is extremely poignant, especially as it’s snatched away within a few pages.

Again I could see why people think Stannis is a bit of a dick in this chapter, but Cressen loved him and had been at his side for his entire life so he understood that was his way. Later on - I think in the Theon sample chapter from TWOW - he mentions how he had a maester on Dragonstone who was almost a father to him.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

Believe me I am not holding out hope for the "cart before the horse" line, but is it really a guarantee that it couldn't be included in Season 5? Did Jon ever really have a conversation with Stannis about why he came to the wall yet?

[zaphodbrx]

Believe me I am not holding out hope for the "cart before the horse" line, but is it really a guarantee that it couldn't be included in Season 5? Did Jon ever really have a conversation with Stannis about why he came to the wall yet?

The cart and horse conversation would not make sense in the context of the show because

1) Stannis didn't even know about the wildlings, since Sam sent some cock and bull story about white walkers instead ( before Jon had even gotten back to Castle Black ) and they wasted all their 44 ravens on that.

2) When Stannis saw the letter he was like 'Meh' . But then he was sternly ordered by Melisandre to drop everything and go to the wall. So he didn't go because of his duty but because he is a slave to Melisandre.

3) Even if you ignore the above two, it doesn't explain why he spent the entire season screwing around. If he had really been serious about the Wall, he would have gone their in episode 1.

Basically the only way you could have the cart and horse conversation is if you retcon everything that happened in S3E10.

Well, the writers love ignoring continuity, logic and plot holes, so they still could have that if they wanted to. But that's the point though. They don't want to. They hate Stannis with a fanatic passion and will do everything in their power to villainize him. At the beginning of the season Stannis has gone 'full Melisandre' , according to them, explaining the burnings. Ever since the battle of wall was known to be in ep. 9, we had speculation like we would see Stannis fighting and slaying a giant or things like that, well what happened, ep. 9 didn't have him at all and in ep. 10 all the wildlings had been reduced to a dozen men round a campfire and Mance had become Ghandi, so yea, no fighting for Stannis. Don't expect anything from D&D, and you won't be disappointed.

[The Drunkard]

Believe me I am not holding out hope for the "cart before the horse" line, but is it really a guarantee that it couldn't be included in Season 5? Did Jon ever really have a conversation with Stannis about why he came to the wall yet?

Not in the show, no, but as zaphodbrx said, they've changed his motivation for going to the Wall. In the show Melisandre tells him to spare Davos and that he needs to go the Wall, so he does it. The cart before the horse, rights before duty, saving the kingdom to win the throne, etc, speech never happened.

Plus, GRRM has a video where he talks about Stannis' motivation and reads the line almost straight from the book, which I seriously doubt would happen if they intended to include that in the show.

[Dolorous Gabe]

The whole Stannis fandom baffles me, I must say, but I do think the show doesn't always achieve the complexity of things from the books. I completely agree with those saying that Stannis' arrival to save the NW was deeply underwhelming in the show. It was far too easy and given how reasonable Mance had been (without the horn and without success in opening the gate, Mance had no position of strength with which to bargain - killing every last man in CB was not going to happen from that side of the Wall).

The music is unfortunate in that it suggests an obvious portrayal of villainy, but I always linked it to Melisandre rather than Stannis. However, there are a few ways they have made him more likeable in the show, particularly in his comments about Ned. In the books he always makes a point of saying that "Lord Eddard was no friend of mine", and his honour was an afterthought, whereas show-Stannis is always quicker to praise him as an honourable man.

I've always considered the more interesting characters in Stannis' story to be Davos and Melisandre. I have to wonder what Stannis would have done without them and I highly doubt he would have ended up north of the Wall saving the NW, given that Davos brings him the letter and it ends up being the one thing he and Mel agree upon.

Again it comes down to the greyness of the characters and the moral complexity of the situations they are in. I think the show just fails at times to fully realise that complexity. I think they have obvious preferences for particular characters and they sometimes struggle to set them aside for the sake of keeping that complexity. I still like the show but for me season four had many more problems than previous seasons.

[Game Of Thrones]

I still like the show but for me season four had many more problems than previous seasons.

S5 won't be better...

[Ruin]

I hope ShowStan gets more screentime in S5.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

Not in the show, no, but as zaphodbrx said, they've changed his motivation for going to the Wall. In the show Melisandre tells him to spare Davos and that he needs to go the Wall, so he does it. The cart before the horse, rights before duty, saving the kingdom to win the throne, etc, speech never happened.

Plus, GRRM has a video where he talks about Stannis' motivation and reads the line almost straight from the book, which I seriously doubt would happen if they intended to include that in the show.

Oh yes I understand why it makes little sense after episode 3x10, but there were several people here commenting on the lack of the line in this episode. All I'm saying is if they chose to include the line still, it wouldn't necessarily have to be in this episode.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

The whole Stannis fandom baffles me, I must say, but I do think the show doesn't always achieve the complexity of things from the books. I completely agree with those saying that Stannis' arrival to save the NW was deeply underwhelming in the show. It was far too easy and given how reasonable Mance had been (without the horn and without success in opening the gate, Mance had no position of strength with which to bargain - killing every last man in CB was not going to happen from that side of the Wall).

The music is unfortunate in that it suggests an obvious portrayal of villainy, but I always linked it to Melisandre rather than Stannis. However, there are a few ways they have made him more likeable in the show, particularly in his comments about Ned. In the books he always makes a point of saying that "Lord Eddard was no friend of mine", and his honour was an afterthought, whereas show-Stannis is always quicker to praise him as an honourable man.

I've always considered the more interesting characters in Stannis' story to be Davos and Melisandre. I have to wonder what Stannis would have done without them and I highly doubt he would have ended up north of the Wall saving the NW, given that Davos brings him the letter and it ends up being the one thing he and Mel agree upon.

Again it comes down to the greyness of the characters and the moral complexity of the situations they are in. I think the show just fails at times to fully realise that complexity. I think they have obvious preferences for particular characters and they sometimes struggle to set them aside for the sake of keeping that complexity. I still like the show but for me season four had many more problems than previous seasons.

Yes and the problem with not realizing the complexities of the characters is that it is one of the greatest components of the series. ASOIAF is so unique because of the greyness of most characters and when the show tries to make Stannis out to be a bad guy or Tyrion a purely good guy, they are ignoring what makes the characters in the books so great. Granted they haven't messed all the characters up this way, but it is disappointing how they've handled some of them.

[lsdjesus]

Some of you are saying that in the showrunners paint Stannis as a villain because he killed Wildlings, that people who are only watching the show should believe that the Wildlings crossing the Wall would actually be a good thing.

Well then, please explain this to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poEn5tUaLS8

[The Onion Sleight]

Some of you are saying that in the showrunners paint Stannis as a villain because he killed Wildlings, that people who are only watching the show should believe that the Wildlings crossing the Wall would actually be a good thing.

Well then, please explain this to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poEn5tUaLS8

:agree:

And really, I haven't heard/seen/read of ANYONE so far who thought what he has done was somehow wrong, it's the opposite!

For example, please guys who believe he was portrayed as a villain, I'd like you to explain me this: http://youtu.be/L6M0Lrfwvng

The cheering for him, the applause and everything - and I'm pretty sure this is NOT a bar which only allows book readers.

Oh, or what's with this nice statistics/charts: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/06/how-the-internet-changed-its-allegiances-throughout-game-of-thrones-season-four/ ?

Looks like somebody had a big popularity boost...

[zaphodbrx]

I don't judge the show from non readers perspective. In general they are unreliable and very forgiving of plot holes and goofs.

Based on my interaction with non readers, about 50% don't know who Stannis is. Or they confuse him with either Roose Bolton, or Tywin. ( Black coat, balding, old-ish white guy , evil sounding music ). Even those who know him only call him 'dude with the red witch'.

It depresses me to admit but I think that D&D actually have a better handle on non readers than we do. A -LOT- of them just watch for T&A + violence ( especially boss fights. ) + shocking/crazy moments + CGI etc. And this is why the show is popular despite its huge writing flaws.

So the fact that TV-only viewers think that Stannis didn't do any wrong doesn't concern me. The truth is that they are just happy to see him doing anything at all.

I have yet to see any rebuttals to my opening post, especially point 1. Some people have stated that Jon's throat was held at knife point which is a blatant lie because no such thing happens in the episode, only in the trailer it is carefully edited. Show!Jon had absolutely nothing to lose by accepting Mance Rayder's terms.

...............

Anyway I did look at the 'popularity charts' in the last post.

The scales on the graphs are deceiving. Here are the numbers:

Stannis graph is around 2.40%, spiking to 3.30% after ep. 10. This isn't a very big increase imo.

Martell starts at 4.5% and goes to around 6.0%

Dany starts at 12.5% and gradually drops to 11.0% over the season.

This actually supports what I am trying to say.

Stannis is still terribly unpopular compared to Oberyn or Dany based on whatever scale they are using.

The reason why the rating spikes in ep. 10 is because he is finally 'doing something'. ( TV viewers dont really analyze beyond that, or they think that he 'saved' Jon Snow, which is good enough for them )

Dany's rating goes down for the same reason, because she is not 'doing anything'. it is instructive to note that despite a series of bad decisions ( such as crucifications, exiling Jorah, locking up dragons ), 'Khaleesi' is still incredibly popular. Perhaps the most popular character or just behind Tyrion. She is one of the most recognizable character in the show and D&D love dragons.

[Thelastactionhero]

Guys, this thread started out in episode two with the idea of actually creating a "balanced review of Show-Stannis:" not just a nitpick-y list of all the things the show got wrong with his portrayal. By now, I think this title is kind of a misnomer, and should probably just be changed to something like "Why D&D obviously hate Stannis" or "Show-Stannis as a villain." It just frustrates me because I appreciated thelastactionhero's measured take on the situation which was the basis for the original thread.

Anyway, though, I think people get carried away with what subtle hints or throwaway lines indicate about Stannis' character in the show. I could make a very convincing case for why GRRM hates Stannis if I wanted to, based on lines in the text that make him come off as antagonistic (there are plenty of those, I can assure you).

Appreciate your kind words. Admittedly, when episode 10 aired, I spent two hours writing a painstakingly detailed review of his arc throughout this season. I really tried to give objective analysis of the situation, despite my heavy investment in the character. My thread was never approved, and me, being silly, never saved my review on my computer. Not sure what I did to invoke the ire of the mods, but that's how it goes. It left a sour taste in my mouth to have worked so passionately on assessing his translation from book to screen only to get ignored, that I didn't even bother coming back here to check to see if anyone else had opened this up for discussion. I will say that I think Stannis' scene with Mance and Jon was well worth waiting for, and while I have problems with it, I think they did a fantastic job of handling the events with nuance. We were all concerned that Stannis' men would be killing innocent civilians, which was not the case. In fact, he explicitly states he's not interested in slaughtering defeated men, despite the burden it places on his army. His conversation with Jon, while lacking the infamous cart before the horse line, was really exciting to see. I will say that the show's changes have left me feeling burned out and somewhat depressed, but I am glad that after waiting all year to see Stannis get his due, we at least got something that felt closer to the character, even if it wasn't everything we were hoping for. DnD certainly have been extremely conservative in terms of showing his righteous qualities, but maybe there's still room for those qualities to shine through, even if it's just silly optimism on my part. Been an honor trudging through the mud with ya'll this season though!

[zaphodbrx]

Thelastactionhero,

Would greatly request you to post your thoughts on Stannis in season 4. Or an abridged version of the same.

Sorry your thread was not approved :(

[Batbob45]

Why did he bring his kid to a NW funeral ?

[Belisarius09]

Can all of us who were saying D&D were butchering the character of Stannis have some fucking vindication now that S5 Ep9 has come out? Somebody better pick up that phone because we fucking called it.