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Balanced review of Stannis [Book Spoilers]


zaphodbrx

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just found this quote from kit harrington on jon snow meeting stannis for the first time. it's hard to discern if this is his interpretation of it or he's been told this but i'm sure this insight will set the tone for future interactions with jon and stannis on the show.

Jon was the first to meet with the new arrivals, and was able to quickly gain the trust of their King by revealing who his father was. Although he addresses Stannis as ‘you grace,’ Kit says that Jon doesn’t see Stannis as his leader.

“It’s a really interesting power play moment. You haven’t seen Jon come across a king before, and it’s interesting to see how he deals with it. He’s asked by Tormund, ‘Is that your King?’ And he says to Tormund, ‘I don’t have a King,’ and I think that’s Jon through and through. He’s part of the Night’s Watch and he’ll refer to Stannis as, ‘your grace,’ but he’s a brother of the Night’s Watch. He isn’t led by anyone.”

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My problem with show!Shireen is how fricking unbelievable she is. Do you ask your 12 yo kid to write out important documents such as loan applications? I most certainly don't.

just found this quote from kit harrington on jon snow meeting stannis for the first time. it's hard to discern if this is his interpretation of it or he's been told this but i'm sure this insight will set the tone for future interactions with jon and stannis on the show.

As far as the show goes its not too bad. It's also not correct. The Night's watch does not take part in the affairs of the realm, but that doesn't mean Jon doesn't see Stannis as a king. In the books, he most definitely does ( 'The King who cared' - ofc that line has no chance in hell of making it to the show )

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On one hand I agree that most characters in ASOIAF can't be classified into 'hero' or 'villain' very easily. On the other hand, I disagree that any character ( and especially Stannis ) has 'hero moments' or 'villain moments'.

First of all. Stannis in the books doesn't know that he killed his brother. He certainly suspects it on some level, but doesn't know the details. And he expresses deep regrets over the matter ( paraphrasing )- 'He brought his doom upon himself, but I did love him. Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit'. Second, there isn't any such thing as 'black' magic. It is the same thing as Dany using her dragon to burn the slaver, or faceless men and so on. 'Black' magic is more of a hollywood thing- in GRRM's work, the only common theme is that all magic comes at a price. Third, Renly was planning to kill his brother and usurp his position, thus he was a traitor and Stannis was perfectly justified in going for a preemptive strike.

If you think that killing his brother is a 'villain' moment, you need to read the books more carefully. GRRM is way more subtle than that. By the by, Renly in the books is very different from that in the show, they whitewashed him a -lot-.

Saving the Night's watch ( and more importantly the wall, against a WW invasions and such ) is a 'hero moment' of sorts. But it is a big tragedy for the wildlings, of whom only small groups get south of the wall eventually, the remaining are left to sort of wander around and die due to cold or the army of the dead. It really can be read both ways.

The important part is the motivation, that is completely non existent on the show.

GRRM even made a separate video to explain WHY Stannis attacks the wildlings, which by the way, is totally inconsistent with show canon, because 1) Stannis in the show didn't even know about the wildlings, since Sam's letter only contained some info on a white walker and the battle with zombie army and 2) He didn't go there because he felt it was his duty as a king ( the cart and horse conversation ), he did so because Melisandre ordered him to. And 3), even if you ignore the previous two, Stannis also spent the entire season screwing around with completely unrelated things.

To be honest, most casual viewers that I have asked have no idea why Stannis is there, they are just happy that he is finally 'doing something'. And those that like Jon Snow think he just came there to save Jon, even though Jon's life was not in any danger to begin with -see point 1) in my original post - and no, Jon would not have tried to kill Mance, he's not dumb and there was no downside in accepting his terms whatsoever.

The big problem with D&D is that they think motivations don't matter.

They can't explain the whole Alester Florent story, so they just have him burn as an 'infidel'.

They can't explain the Tysha stuff, so they just have Tyrion kill his father just because.

The characters are entirely driven by their own interpretations of the character, rather than any sort of internal logic. Thus Tyrion is a saint, and Stannis is the villain, no matter what they do. The music is also a clear indicator.

First off, I don't really care about Show!Shireen, especially since she is not black of hair. She's a minor character in the books and consumes way too much screen time in invented scenes. Yes, he loves his daughter. Why wouldn't he? It's kind of like Hitler is nice to his pet dog. It's a neat touch. It is also completely irrelevant. None of Stannis' motivations and questionable decisions have anything to do with his daughter. It's just a sort of red herring that show defenders bring up to cover up the butchering and blackwashing of his character.

I very agree with what you said about Renly's death and "black" magic (hate his phrase) and motivations and explanations.

But I strongly disagree with the things about Shireen. First of all: What is that comparison with "It's like even Hitler liked dogs."?! We don't need to look for redeeming qualities for such persons and if comparing such strange examples, you could better say "Even Roose is fond of his wife". I don't see it just as neat touch and it isn't irrelevant. She has of course to do with his questionable decisions, he says he has a "duty to his daughter, the realm, even to Robert" (in that order) and Stannis makes -or forces- himself to do or tolerate things he actually hates and despises because he sees them as necassary to get the throne, not only for him, also for Shireen and the Baratheon's heritage and dynasty.

And I think she'll play an important role in the later books and her small book-role till now is more a red herring in them. Also, since Davos hasn't any sons left on the show, I'm very glad to see him having at least scenes with Shireen which show that he's a great father figure and so, no, I don't think she consumes too much time with invented scenes!

My problem with show!Shireen is how fricking unbelievable she is. Do you ask your 12 yo kid to write out important documents such as loan applications? I most certainly don't.

As far as the show goes its not too bad. It's also not correct. The Night's watch does not take part in the affairs of the realm, but that doesn't mean Jon doesn't see Stannis as a king. In the books, he most definitely does ( 'The King who cared' - ofc that line has no chance in hell of making it to the show )

"A king" and "his king" are two different things. Yes, Jon definitely sees Stannis as a/the king, he's the one who always refers to Stannis as "the king" or "King Stannis", while others like Sam or Bowen Marsh say often "Lord Stannis" (athough it's Sam, not Jon, who thinks in his POV about him as "The King who still cared"!); but Jon knows his position as NW member and even more then as Lord Commander.

I can see anything wrong Kit said, and he read he books, so I guess he's able to understand the Jon/Stannis relationship by himself and what he said is right, especially at this time of the story. The relationship between him as LC of the NW to Stannis as king developes in ADWD, here's a great arcitel about Jon's support for Stannis and its development: http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/other-wars-part-ii-jons-support-for-stannis/ . It's one of Jon's most important aspects in his LC-arc and we know that he struggles with keeping the NW out of political affairs in the realm, not taking a king's side, and his own wishes (for Winterfell, his sister, the North, aso.) and thoughts (E.g.: "The Night’s Watch takes no part, a voice said, but another replied, Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder." or "The Night’s Watch took no part, he knew, and it should not matter to him which king emerged triumphant. Somehow it did."); and that all needs time and will get even more interesting when he becomes the LC next season and we see Jon and Stannis squabbling and negotiating about castles and the Wildlings, but helping each other also at the same time (with the Mountain Clans/Deepwood Motte/the letter about Karstarks' betrayal and repairing and manning the castles/freeing Winterfell/promising to save "Arya" if he can, aso...).

The scene, imo, laid the foundation for their relationship and what Kit said fits well to the Jon/Stannis meetings at the beginning of ADWD and Jon's (inner) conficts.

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My problem with show!Shireen is how fricking unbelievable she is. Do you ask your 12 yo kid to write out important documents such as loan applications? I most certainly don't.

stannis didn't ask shireen to do anything. davos did and he did so because as a noble born, she could read and write better than most of the adults in westeros. he even says he needs someone who really knows how to write and proceeds to dictate to her. very believable.

As far as the show goes its not too bad. It's also not correct. The Night's watch does not take part in the affairs of the realm, but that doesn't mean Jon doesn't see Stannis as a king. In the books, he most definitely does ( 'The King who cared' - ofc that line has no chance in hell of making it to the show )

i agree with onion sleight. i don't think jon sees stannis as his king but acknowledges he's the king his father was willing to die for. i feel like the scene depicts the book relationship between the two nicely but i'm sure there will be complaints from the stanstans.

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There always seem to be more predictions about 'stanstan' reactions than there are 'stanstan' reactions.

you must not be reading all the threads since season 2 in the show forum about how stannis is being crucified on the show. no need to predict since its already been happening.

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2)The battle itself. I don't like how the so called '100,000 wildling army' was reduced to 50 dudes huddled around a campfire.

Yes, this did grate more than a little. What really didn't help was Mance's line " I showed you everything I had. The whole army... 100,000 strong!" literally 2 and a half minutes before Stannis "unleashes hell" Russell Crowe style.

Now I get in the book, as well as the series, that the Wildling by definition aren't an organised military force - they are a rag bag assortment of clans. But the 'battle' didn't really work, much as I did love Stannis' steely eyed march towards Mance.

I didn't hate the whole segment, but I think they could have done themselves a favour by dropping the repeated references to 100,000 in epsiode 9 and 10. AKA, in this isntance, D&D should have pulled a 'Tysha' move for the camp scene and had him say 'scores'.

As an aside, I still bristle over the Tysha fallacy - her role in his backstory could have been re-introduced in the Mountain and Viper Jaime prison cell scene and then exploded with Jaime's revelation during the escape. Instead we got the bloody Orson "beetle crusher" Lannister ad-libbing tripe. :bang:

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Guys, this thread started out in episode two with the idea of actually creating a "balanced review of Show-Stannis:" not just a nitpick-y list of all the things the show got wrong with his portrayal. By now, I think this title is kind of a misnomer, and should probably just be changed to something like "Why D&D obviously hate Stannis" or "Show-Stannis as a villain." It just frustrates me because I appreciated thelastactionhero's measured take on the situation which was the basis for the original thread.



Anyway, though, I think people get carried away with what subtle hints or throwaway lines indicate about Stannis' character in the show. I could make a very convincing case for why GRRM hates Stannis if I wanted to, based on lines in the text that make him come off as antagonistic (there are plenty of those, I can assure you).


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i thought it was handled really well. the only things are i wish they had shown more wildlings fighting and more of a battle, but i get why they couldnt.


mostly, i just wish this had happened at the end of the watchers on the wall. that could have been a really long episode and this one could have been normal length. it would have been a better conclusion to the episode than jon walking out beyond the wall. then we could have time for stannis's offer this episode.


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I liked the scene actually, show Stannis is not book Stannis, the core of the character is the same, but once you've seperated the two you can genuinely enjoy moments of his character, episode 10 Stannis was a total badass, a bit of a dick, and he's fighting the war that matters. I actually like him almost as much as his book counterpart, and I can't with a straight face praise what they've done with Alisser Thorne and then criticise Stannis' portrayal in the same breath.



Plus, no Tysha (which seriously devalues the "whore" line), and the Oberyn flips (so much for the "gritty" fantasy this was advertised as originally), and the fighting skeletons and the underwhelming Bloodraven, corny slow-mo, and that other thing I forgot as I was writing this list out, criticism of Stannis' adaption is slowly falling by the wayside.


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As someone who's been a staunch critic of Stannis' portrayal in the show, i actually loved the scene in episode 10. If you go back and watch some of his previous episodes, there's a stark contrast between the brooding, petulant, post-blackwater Stannis and the Stannis showed in Episode 10. I thought he looked like a badass riding into Mance's camp(see: him not flinching after a hilarious wildling charge attempt) and he radiated Royalty in his conduct with Mance and Jon. Mance not kneeling is just Mance being Mance, he would've done the same to Robb, Joff, Renly etc and i thought Stannis handled it well. If they really wanted to make Stannis look like a Villain, they would've had him order one of his goons to beat the shit out of Mance to make an example of him or just had him burn some wildings out of spite. And he wouldn't have given a shit about Jon being Ned's bastard son either.



I also liked how Melisandre really wasn't featured during that scene, or even near his side at the Wall. Instead, it was Davos. They could've very easily force fed Melisandre to us and made it look like she was in control of things, but they didn't.



Another one of the aspects of that scene that really intrigued me was how coordinated and competent Stannis' army looked. It made Stannis look like a brilliant military strategist/tactician(which if D&D hated Stannis, it wouldn't be necessary) and apparently that scene was expensive to film so you would think that showing all of that would have some special significance. So hopefully that scene's more of a foreshadowing of things to come for him in the show.


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Guys, this thread started out in episode two with the idea of actually creating a "balanced review of Show-Stannis:" not just a nitpick-y list of all the things the show got wrong with his portrayal. By now, I think this title is kind of a misnomer, and should probably just be changed to something like "Why D&D obviously hate Stannis" or "Show-Stannis as a villain." It just frustrates me because I appreciated thelastactionhero's measured take on the situation which was the basis for the original thread.

Anyway, though, I think people get carried away with what subtle hints or throwaway lines indicate about Stannis' character in the show. I could make a very convincing case for why GRRM hates Stannis if I wanted to, based on lines in the text that make him come off as antagonistic (there are plenty of those, I can assure you).

Funny you should mention that, but I was reading through some of the ASOS Wall chapters post Stannis' arrival and just snickering away at how snappish and rude he is to everyone he meets, he's even pretty sharp with Maester Aemon. I hope some of that makes it onto the show and that Stannis is shown as being a pain in everyone's ass even while he's there to help them. My favourite quote was "You called and I came my lords. Now you must live with me, or die with me. Best get used to it."

I understand some of the criticism of Show!Stannis though I love them both. But I do think a lot of people are determined to just see the worst of him no and no matter what happens going forward they're going to be unhappy with him.

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Funny you should mention that, but I was reading through some of the ASOS Wall chapters post Stannis' arrival and just snickering away at how snappish and rude he is to everyone he meets, he's even pretty sharp with Maester Aemon. I hope some of that makes it onto the show and that Stannis is shown as being a pain in everyone's ass even while he's there to help them. My favourite quote was "You called and I came my lords. Now you must live with me, or die with me. Best get used to it."

I understand some of the criticism of Show!Stannis though I love them both. But I do think a lot of people are determined to just see the worst of him no and no matter what happens going forward they're going to be unhappy with him.

or the best of him because i've already seen posts hoping for to see the "beautiful friendship" between stannis and jon. i never see people posting him as being a pain in everyone's ass even while he's there to help them. cheers to you, ser, for your honesty! :cheers: i suspect lots of unhappy posts next seasons based on what kit's explained about how show jon sees stannis.

i will say though, some reactions to stannis' arrival at the wall and the explanation of how some have interpreted the text has gone a long way to help me understand the undying loyalty of some stanstans. i really get it now.

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or the best of him because i've already seen posts hoping for to see the "beautiful friendship" between stannis and jon. i never see people posting him as being a pain in everyone's ass even while he's there to help them. cheers to you, ser, for your honesty! :cheers: i suspect lots of unhappy posts next seasons based on what kit's explained about how show jon sees stannis.

i will say though, some reactions to stannis' arrival at the wall and the explanation of how some have interpreted the text has gone a long way to help me understand the undying loyalty of some stanstans. i really get it now.

I don't really see the problem with what Kit says (but I'm probably not the best "stanstan" to talk about these things). He's naturally going to have some suspicions of Stannis, and if Stannis starts haranguing him like he does in the books then he'll get even more annoyed at him!

Yet even with his annoyance he comes to see that Stannis is truly his king, and while he shouldn't care who wins the throne, he does want it to be Stannis. I think the "power play" will be very interesting, though I personally prefer Stannis' march on Winterfell. I find it ghoulishly fascinating. :ack:

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I've been polling my unsullied distant relatives and co-workers about Stannis before and after Episode 10. Most of my friends and family have heard me talk about him, so they're out.



And the general response is apathy. Most like Davos and are creeped by Mel. But really don't have much of an opinion on him.



My blue-collar cousin was surprised it was Stannis not "Khaleesi" who saved the wall.



The strongest thing said against him was a male nurse who said "Stannis is a total dickbag" before ep 10. After episode 10 he was a "total bro"/

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I don't really see the problem with what Kit says (but I'm probably not the best "stanstan" to talk about these things). He's naturally going to have some suspicions of Stannis, and if Stannis starts haranguing him like he does in the books then he'll get even more annoyed at him!

Yet even with his annoyance he comes to see that Stannis is truly his king, and while he shouldn't care who wins the throne, he does want it to be Stannis. I think the "power play" will be very interesting, though I personally prefer Stannis' march on Winterfell. I find it ghoulishly fascinating. :ack:

I don't think that Jon sees Stannis as his king at all. There's a detachment there caused by the fact that Jon knows that Stannis can't force him to do anything...Jon has autonomy as the LC of the Night's Watch. I think he supports Stannis in what he does because of the debt he owes him and the fact that Stannis can help him in his own endeavors. It's very much a give-take relationship, where Jon gets just as much, if not more, out of Stannis than vice-versa. While Jon respects the man, I don't see any indication that he thinks if Stannis as the one true king. He's much too jaded and pragmatic in his views.

Even in the show, Tormund asks him if Stannis is his king and he responds that he doesn't have a king. Tormund then says that he can never be a kneeler again, and I think that pretty much sums up Jon's feelings towards kings and such.

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I don't really see the problem with what Kit says

neither do i. others probably will.

I don't think that Jon sees Stannis as his king at all. There's a detachment there caused by the fact that Jon knows that Stannis can't force him to do anything...Jon has autonomy as the LC of the Night's Watch. I think he supports Stannis in what he does because of the debt he owes him and the fact that Stannis can help him in his own endeavors. It's very much a give-take relationship, where Jon gets just as much, if not more, out of Stannis than vice-versa. While Jon respects the man, I don't see any indication that he thinks if Stannis as the one true king. He's much too jaded and pragmatic in his views.

Even in the show, Tormund asks him if Stannis is his king and he responds that he doesn't have a king. Tormund then says that he can never be a kneeler again, and I think that pretty much sums up Jon's feelings towards kings and such.

aye! i agree.

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Someone on youtube edited episode 9 and 10 together, so that Stannis now arrives at the end of Episode 9. In this version he appears more as the hero, he truly is in that situation, imho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k7QWm4pa8s

Yes, I like that one. Notice the change in music as well.

I've been polling my unsullied distant relatives and co-workers about Stannis before and after Episode 10. Most of my friends and family have heard me talk about him, so they're out.

And the general response is apathy. Most like Davos and are creeped by Mel. But really don't have much of an opinion on him.

My blue-collar cousin was surprised it was Stannis not "Khaleesi" who saved the wall.

The strongest thing said against him was a male nurse who said "Stannis is a total dickbag" before ep 10. After episode 10 he was a "total bro"/

Pretty much this. I have observed it too.

Stannis just doesn't seem to be in control of anything in the show for them to care about. A lot of them still confuse him with Roose Bolton, and sometimes with Tywin. If they know him at all, its usually 'guy with the red witch'.

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Maybe I should have rephrased that as "Jon sees Stannis as the best of a bad bunch" :P I don't have access to ADWD right now but I know there's some reference later on in ADWD to Jon thinking it shouldn't really matter to him Stannis wins or not, but somehow it did.


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