Confessions from 2014

[thewindofthenorth]

Cersei's walk of shame is simply forced upon her. It wasn't even much of the choice to begin with. She wanted safety and the only way to get it was that unjust and completely insanely misogynist Walk of shame. She didn't have much choice. One has to wonder about hypocrisy of High Septon who allowed Margaery to be in custody of her father's bannerman (who by chance brought the army with him), and Cersei was forced to do Walk of shame because she had sex when she was a widow. As much as I hate Cersei, this was by far one of the most heinous acts in the books.

What exactly do you disagree with?

Yes she had a choice. Reread the quotes I posted. She could ask for a trial and it would be fairer than having Ser Robert Strong defend her(trial by combat with Frakengregor is 0 percent fair).

She would probably die by there is evidence against her.

Oh and the HS isn't hypocritical. The case against Marg was weak and that was one of the motivations why she was relased.

And Cersei was not forced.

She even thinks she could go for a legit trial.

I’ll be back with Tommen, in my own chambers inside Maegor’s Holdfast.Her uncle said it was the only way to save herself. Was it, though? She could not trust her uncle, no more than she trusted this High Septon.I could still refuse. I could still insist upon my innocence and hazard all upon a trial. But she dare not let the Faith sit in judgment on her, as that Margaery Tyrell meant to do. That might serve the little rose well enough, but Cersei had few friends amongst the septas and sparrows around this new High Septon. Her only hope was trial by battle, and for that she must needs have a champion.

Anything Cersei thinks about not winning is because their is evidence against her. So basically, Cersei was put into this situation because of her paranoia and actual guilt....

Should have just owned up to her actual crimes if she didn't want to do the WOS.

[Mladen]

Yes she had a choice. Reread the quotes I posted. She could ask for a trial and it would be fairer than having Ser Robert Strong defend her(trial by combat with Frakengregor is 0 percent fair).

She would probably die by there is evidence against her.

Oh and the HS isn't hypocritical. The case against Marg was weak and that was one of the motivations why she was relased.

And Cersei was not forced.

She even thinks she could go for a legit trial.

I’ll be back with Tommen, in my own chambers inside Maegor’s Holdfast.Her uncle said it was the only way to save herself. Was it, though? She could not trust her uncle, no more than she trusted this High Septon.I could still refuse. I could still insist upon my innocence and hazard all upon a trial. But she dare not let the Faith sit in judgment on her, as that Margaery Tyrell meant to do. That might serve the little rose well enough, but Cersei had few friends amongst the septas and sparrows around this new High Septon. Her only hope was trial by battle, and for that she must needs have a champion.

Anything Cersei thinks about not winning is because their is evidence against her. So basically, Cersei was put into this situation because of her paranoia and actual guilt....

Should have just owned up to her actual crimes if she didn't want to do the WOS.

I have read that part very well the first time. Simply, she wasn't feeling safe there. Compare that to Gwantanamo bay type of prison, where you are being sleep deprived, starved etc. Cersei wanted safety of her home. She could have waited the trial there, which wouldn't change the fact that Ser Robert Strong would be her champion. Her WOS and his appointment as her champion are two separate things.

HS was hypocritical. He basically mind raped her in order to show who's the boss in KL. the message was very clear: "If I can do this to Queen Regent, guess what I can do to you" He absolved Margaery because there is no proof and because there is an army outside his doors demanding her release.

I think you confuse some things. If Cersei waited for trail, she would always choose trial by combat, and she would have always chosen Ser Robert. The trial by combat is legitimate way of proving innocence in Westeros' law.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I confess I almost encourage the show to deviate from the books, provided the stuff they change isn't really stupid.

[thewindofthenorth]

I have read that part very well the first time. Simply, she wasn't feeling safe there. Compare that to Gwantanamo bay type of prison, where you are being sleep deprived, starved etc. Cersei wanted safety of her home. She could have waited the trial there, which wouldn't change the fact that Ser Robert Strong would be her champion. Her WOS and his appointment as her champion are two separate things.

HS was hypocritical. He basically mind raped her in order to show who's the boss in KL. the message was very clear: "If I can do this to Queen Regent, guess what I can do to you" He absolved Margaery because there is no proof and because there is an army outside his doors demanding her release.

I think you confuse some things. If Cersei waited for trail, she would always choose trial by combat, and she would have always chosen Ser Robert. The trial by combat is legitimate way of proving innocence in Westeros' law.

A humble and a contrite heart proved to have benefits over and beyond cleansing the soul of sin. That night the queen was moved to a larger cell two floors down, with a window she could actually look out of and warm, soft blankets for her bed. And when time came for supper, instead of stale bread and oaten porridge, she was served a roast capon, a bowl of crisp greens sprinkled with crushed walnuts, and a mound of mashed neeps aswim in butter. That night she crawled into her bed with a full stomach for the first time since she was taken, and slept through the black watches of the night undisturbed.

Nope. Cersei wasn't tortured after talking to the HS. Feeling safe is no longer an excuse. And Cersei was not going to go for a trial by combat if she didn't do the WOS.

If she didn't do the WOS,

But she dare not let the Faith sit in judgment on her, as that Margaery Tyrell meant to do. That might serve the little rose well enough, but Cersei had few friends amongst the septas and sparrows around this new High Septon. Her only hope was trial by battle, and for that she must needs have a champion.

It wouldn't go for trial by combat. It would be a legitimate trial where there is actual evidence against her.

The reason why Marg is going for a legitimate trial is because the evidence against her is LOL.

So basically, the WOS was for her champion, and if she didn't do it, she'd go through a fairer trial than getting Ser Robert to defend her.

[Mladen]

A humble and a contrite heart proved to have benefits over and beyond cleansing the soul of sin. That night the queen was moved to a larger cell two floors down, with a window she could actually look out of and warm, soft blankets for her bed. And when time came for supper, instead of stale bread and oaten porridge, she was served a roast capon, a bowl of crisp greens sprinkled with crushed walnuts, and a mound of mashed neeps aswim in butter. That night she crawled into her bed with a full stomach for the first time since she was taken, and slept through the black watches of the night undisturbed.

Nope. Cersei wasn't tortured after talking to the HS. Feeling safe is no longer an excuse. And Cersei was not going to go for a trial by combat if she didn't do the WOS.

If she didn't do the WOS,

But she dare not let the Faith sit in judgment on her, as that Margaery Tyrell meant to do. That might serve the little rose well enough, but Cersei had few friends amongst the septas and sparrows around this new High Septon. Her only hope was trial by battle, and for that she must needs have a champion.

It wouldn't go for trial by combat. It would be a legitimate trial where there is actual evidence against her.

The reason why Marg is going for a legitimate trial is because the evidence against her is LOL.

Trial by combat is always an option. Trial by combat isn't illegitimate way of proving the innocence. It's shady certainly, but according to Westerosi law, it is always a legitimate option.

Now, regarding what choice she had, let we see her thinking process:

1. Her first reaction, in which we see how "thrilled" she was with the idea:

“No.” She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. “Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore.”

2. Kevan pushing it, making it quite clear that she may die if she stay there.

“No,” she said, more sharply. “I would sooner die.”

Ser Kevan was unmoved. “If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason.”

3. The sense of freedom she had

Someone is listening. Even here, even now, she dare not speak freely.

4. The real reason why she accepted the walk

A little walk and I’ll be home, I’ll be back with Tommen, in my own chambers inside Maegor’s Holdfast. Her uncle said it was the only way to save herself.

She had to reach Tommen, no matter the costs.

So, it is plainly obvious why Cersei accepted the Walk of shame. Kevan persuaded her to believe that it's the only way out. She wanted to see her son, she wanted to be safe at her home.

Regarding trial by combat, again, you are mistaken if you think that trial by combat is illegitimate. It is as legitimate as you van get. And it was up to Cersei, as Kevan blatantly said in ADWD:

“Who will try me?”

“The Faith,” her uncle said, “unless you insist on a trial by battle.

So basically, the WOS was for her champion, and if she didn't do it, she'd go through a fairer trial than getting Ser Robert to defend her.

Nope, since she already made arrangements with Kevan and Qyburn about Ser Robert. Even if she stayed there, she could have demanded trial by combat. Even if she stayed there, Ser Robert would have been accepted in KG. I honestly don't see your logic here.

[thewindofthenorth]

Yeah. You're not getting my argument. I'm not saying trial by combat isn't an option. I'm just saying, its not a real "trial" where evidence is shown and where Cersei is judged accordingly. Cersei could choose trial by combat, or she could have gone for a real trial.

And Cersei did te WOS to see Tommen?

Tommen was a just an excuse.

Cersei is thinking about getting her champion.

Her only hope was trial by battle, and for that she must needs have a champion.

And like I keep repeating, the reason why Cersei thinks she is dead if she takes a judgement trial is because.

I’ll be back with Tommen, in my own chambers inside Maegor’s Holdfast.Her uncle said it was the only way to save herself. Was it, though? She could not trust her uncle, no more than she trusted this High Septon.I could still refuse. I could still insist upon my innocence and hazard all upon a trial. But she dare not let the Faith sit in judgment on her, as that Margaery Tyrell meant to do. That might serve the little rose well enough, but Cersei had few friends amongst the septas and sparrows around this new High Septon. Her only hope was trial by battle, and for that she must needs have a champion.

Its because there is evidence against her.

Ser Kevan was unmoved. “If that is your wish, you may soon have it granted. His High Holiness is resolved that you be tried for regicide, deicide, incest, and high treason.”

There is evidence for the bolded of the 2nd sentence.

They had evidence for the supposed deicide charge. Cersei knows it, and even Kevan probably did..

[Mladen]

Yeah. You're not getting my argument. I'm not saying trial by combat isn't an option. I'm just saying, its not a real "trial" where evidence is shown and where Cersei is judged accordingly. Cersei could choose trial by combat, or she could have gone for a real trial.

Unlike, for instance, the real trial Tyrion had for Joffrey's death? The real trials can be as shady as the ones by combat. Simply, she had two legitimate options in front of her and she was free to choose the one that would bring her freedom. It's that simple.

Cersei is thinking about getting her champion.

Again, she would have champion EVEN if she stayed in the prison. Ser Robert was anointed as Kingsguard knight before her Walk of shame. Her getting the champion isn't in any way connected with Walk of shame. Ser Robert would have been her champion, even if she stayed in the prison, because:

1. She could have freely demanded trial by combat

2. After she told Kevan to arrange things with Qyburn, she could have chosen Ser Robert as her champion

None of those demanded her freedom.

And like I keep repeating, the reason why Cersei thinks she is dead if she takes a judgement trial is because.

Yeah, we all know that... We have been reading the books. But, that simply has nothing to do with Walk of shame.

[thewindofthenorth]

Unlike, for instance, the real trial Tyrion had for Joffrey's death? The real trials can be as shady as the ones by combat. Simply, she had two legitimate options in front of her and she was free to choose the one that would bring her freedom. It's that simple.

Cersei isn't in involved with what the faith will trial against her and they actually do have evidence against her. She chose to do the one where evidence and judgement is thrown out and is the one that is based on her connections due to being a Lannister and a queen and whatnot.

Again, she would have champion EVEN if she stayed in the prison. Ser Robert was anointed as Kingsguard knight before her Walk of shame. Her getting the champion isn't in any way connected with Walk of shame. Ser Robert would have been her champion, even if she stayed in the prison, because:

Once she reached its gates, the worst of her travails would be over. She would have her son again. She would have her champion. Her uncle had promised her.Tommen is waiting for me. My little king. I can do this. I must.

Seems as though Cersei making it to Tommen is something needed for her to name Ser Gregor as champion.

1. She could have freely demanded trial by combat

2. After she told Kevan to arrange things with Qyburn, she could have chosen Ser Robert as her champion

None of those demanded her freedom.

I think it does.

was anxious for the day to come. By evening it would all be done.A little walk and I’ll be home, I’ll be back with Tommen, in my own chambers inside Maegor’s Holdfast.Her uncle said it was the only way to save herself.

Why would it be the only way to save herself if she could have named Ser Robert as her champion no matter what?

Yeah, we all know that... We have been reading the books. But, that simply has nothing to do with Walk of shame.

Then why does Cersei take the WOS and think that its the only way to save her if she can order a trial by combat with Qyburn's champion at any time?

[Vesemir]

I confess, I hate Asha.

[Mladen]

Cersei isn't in involved with what the faith will trial against her and they actually do have evidence against her. She chose to do the one where evidence and judgement is thrown out and is the one that is based on her connections due to being a Lannister and a queen and whatnot.

Again, anyone in Westeros can demand trial by combat. They either can fight on their own, or ask for champion. It is that simple. I am not denying Cersei's guilt here, just that it was her right to ask for trial by combat if she wanted.

Seems as though Cersei making it to Tommen is something needed for her to name Ser Gregor as champion.

That is wrong assumption since Ser Robert was already Kingsguard knight before her Walk of shame. Tommen didn't need Cersei for that. Cersei arranged it from her prison with Kevan and Qyburn to make Ser Robert a Kingsguaurd. Thus, for naming him a KG, Cersei didn't need her freedom.

I think it does.

How? Let we say Cersei stays until trial in custody. Now, she comes out, she knows that Ser Robert is KG, and she names him his champion. Simply, her freedom had nothing to do with Robert becoming KG or him being her champion.

Why would it be the only way to save herself if she could have named Ser Robert as her champion no matter what?

She could have named him champion no matter what, as Kevan said in the quote I have provided. Simply, she wanted to be on safe, out of prison, with her son.

Then why does Cersei take the WOS and think that its the only way to save her if she can order a trial by combat with Qyburn's champion at any time?

LOL, I answered this like 5 times already. Because Kevan tells her to do that. Kevan makes her believe that staying in prison would mean death.

I genuinely see no logic in your arguments and there is ZERO textual proof that would corroborate your claims that (1) Cersei couldn't have asked for trial by combat from prison (2) That Robert wouldn't be named KG and her champion if she was in prison. All of your claims are refuted by the text itself. Cersei's aim wasn't Robert, but Tommen, her home and freedom. She already had Ser Robert even when she was captive.

[thewindofthenorth]

Again, anyone in Westeros can demand trial by combat. They either can fight on their own, or ask for champion. It is that simple. I am not denying Cersei's guilt here, just that it was her right to ask for trial by combat if she wanted.

Again. You misinterpret what I am saying. I already know that Cersei could have asked for a trial by combat. But a queen needs to be defended by a KGs. The walk was essentially for the new KGs champion.

That is wrong assumption since Ser Robert was already Kingsguard knight before her Walk of shame. Tommen didn't need Cersei for that. Cersei arranged it from her prison with Kevan and Qyburn to make Ser Robert a Kingsguaurd. Thus, for naming him a KG, Cersei didn't need her freedom.

That doesn't mean Cersei can just call to have him serve her.

How? Let we say Cersei stays until trial in custody. Now, she comes out, she knows that Ser Robert is KG, and she names him his champion. Simply, her freedom had nothing to do with Robert becoming KG or him being her champion.

Then what did Tommen need to be told what to do?

That road led nowhere, though. Jaime’s sword hand was gone, and so was he, vanished with the woman Brienne somewhere in the riverlands. The queen had to find another defender or today’s ordeal would be the least of her travails. Her enemies were accusing her of treason. She had to reach Tommen, no matter the costs.He loves me. He will not refuse his own mother. Joff was stubborn and unpredictable, but Tommen is a good little boy, a good little king. He will do as he is told.If she stayed here, she was doomed, and the only way she would return to the Red Keep was by walking. The High Sparrow had been adamant, and Ser Kevan refused to lift a finger against him.

In fact, Cersei is unsure in this quote if she even has another defender so...... if Robert Strong was such a given? Then why is she unsure about having a champion at this stage? Seems as though Cersei taking the walk is important to her getting her champion.

She could have named him champion no matter what, as Kevan said in the quote I have provided. Simply, she wanted to be on safe, out of prison, with her son.

LOL, I answered this like 5 times already. Because Kevan tells her to do that. Kevan makes her believe that staying in prison would mean death.

And we already have been given the reason which you keep ignoring. Immediately after Cersei thinks that Kevan told her that she was doomed if she stayed there, we see her thinking about how she can't trust him or the HS and thinks about insisting her innocence and going for a judgement trial.

So her reason for thinking she is doomed for staying there is because she would have to go through a non trial by combat trial.

I genuinely see no logic in your arguments and there is ZERO textual proof that would corroborate your claims that (1) Cersei couldn't have asked for trial by combat from prison (2) That Robert wouldn't be named KG and her champion if she was in prison. All of your claims are refuted by the text itself. Cersei's aim wasn't Robert, but Tommen, her home and freedom. She already had Ser Robert even when she was captive.

Ser Kevan had kept his part of the bargain. Tommen, her precious little boy, had named her champion to the Kingsguard. Cersei never saw where Qyburn came from, but suddenly he was there beside them, scrambling to keep up with her champion’s long strides. “Your Grace,” he said, “it is so good to have you back. May I have the honor of presenting our newest member of the Kingsguard? This is Ser Robert Strong.” “Ser Robert,” Cersei whispered, as they entered the gates. “If it please Your Grace, Ser Robert has taken a holy vow of silence,” Qyburn said. “He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace’s enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm.” Yes,thought Cersei Lannister.Oh, yes.

Cersei was not aware she had Ser Robert for certain until the WOS ended.

[Dofs]

WHY did she choose it? Because of SAFETY...

It was so fair and completely justified... Punishing women for having sex. Dear lord... :bang: :bang: :bang:

Let's recall what she did to a guy to make him only falsely admit that he had sex with Margaery.

'By dawn the singer's high blue boots were full of blood, and he had told them how Margaery would fondle herself as she watched her cousins pleasuring him with their mouths. At other times he would sing for her whilst she sated her lusts with other lovers. "Who were they?" the queen demanded, and the wretched Wat named Ser Tallad the Tall, Lambert Turnberry, Jalabhar Xho, the Redwyne twins, Osney Kettleblack, Hugh Clifton, and the Knight of Flowers.

That displeased her. She dare not besmirch the name of the hero of Dragonstone. Besides, no one who knew Ser Loras would ever believe it. The Redwynes could not be a part of it either. Without the Arbor and its fleet, the realm could never hope to rid itself of this Euron Crow's Eye and his accursed ironmen. "All you are doing is spitting up the names of men you saw about her chambers. We want the truth!"

"The truth." Wat looked at her with the one blue eye that Qyburn had left him. Blood bubbled through the holes where his front teeth had been. "I might have . . . misremembered."

The more I read this the more it makes me feel that Cersei deserved her WOS. I think a couple more reads of Cersei's turture of Blue Bard will make me think that Cersei got it easy with WOS.

[Jasta11]

Yeah, I'm never going to shed a tear over Cercei's fate even if she gets the Reek treatment times ten. She's such an incredibly horrible person that I no longer have any sort of sympathy for her.

Don't get me wrong, the Walk itself was not justified by any means and it's horribly sexist, but I do think merely seeing it as punishing a woman for having sex is seeing the tree before the forest. It's a power play. The HS already has proof of her adultery (as much as proof counts in Westeros) and uses that to ''break'' her via the Walk. Obviously he doesn't expect her to have an undead killing machine as her champion AND that Varys would kill Kevan, but apart from that it would have been a fairly solid plan to take the Queen out of the game.

Plus, she tried to have the exact same thing done to Margaery for half her arc. Forgive me if I can't find an ounce of pity for such a rotten, hypocritical bitch.

[Mladen]

Again. You misinterpret what I am saying. I already know that Cersei could have asked for a trial by combat. But a queen needs to be defended by a KGs. The walk was essentially for the new KGs champion.

You mean KG champion that is already named KG? I mean, your logic is simply flawed here. The walk wasn't essentially about new KG champion because:

1. Ser Rober Strong was appointed KG knight before WOS

2. Cersei could have called him a champion from her cell.

So, no, for 5th time, and now it's becoming a bit annoying having to explain that someone was already made KG knight

That doesn't mean Cersei can just call to have him serve her.

IT DOES, ACTUALLY. He is now KG and she is free to call him ti serve her.

Then what did Tommen need to be told what to do?

You definitely need to reread ADWD. I am telling you for the 10th time, Tommen, under Kevan and Qyburn already named Ser Robert as KG knight. It is even written in Cersei's WOS chapter.

In fact, Cersei is unsure in this quote if she even has another defender so...... if Robert Strong was such a given? Then why is she unsure about having a champion at this stage? Seems as though Cersei taking the walk is important to her getting her champion.

Because she had no information from Qyburn that Ser Robert joined the KG. Once, she would have obtained that information, there was nothing to stop her from calling him as the champion, which was her right, as the Queen, and which, Qyburn, unmistakably says is Ser Robert's purpose. So, no. Ser Robert was appointed Kingsguard BEFORE the WOS as well it is blatant obvious that Cersei could have demanded trial by combat at any given moment.

And we already have been given the reason which you keep ignoring. Immediately after Cersei thinks that Kevan told her that she was doomed if she stayed there, we see her thinking about how she can't trust him or the HS and thinks about insisting her innocence and going for a judgement trial.

So her reason for thinking she is doomed for staying there is because she would have to go through a non trial by combat trial.

What reason am I ignoring?

1. The one where you said that Cersei couldn't have demanded trial by combat from her prison, when Kevan said she can?

Or...

2. The one where you said that Cersei needed to appoint Ser Robert as a KIngsguard knight, when in fact he was named KG knight during her time in prison.

Tell me which contriving thought am I rightfully ignoring.

Cersei was not aware she had Ser Robert for certain until the WOS ended.

She had not information that he was named KG knight. That doesn't mean that he wasn't named KG knight...

I am so tired arguing this... Your logic, IMO, is simply flawed and there is not textual corroboration for your claims. Since this has become pointless, I am ending this.

The more I read this the more it makes me feel that Cersei deserved her WOS. I think a couple more reads of Cersei's turture of Blue Bard will make me think that Cersei got it easy with WOS.

The problem is that WOS about Cersei having sex with someone while being a widow. I know all Cersei's numerous crimes and I wish she pays for them. But for having sex with someone? That was misogynist crap I generally don't support. And the way it's written in the books, I honestly don't know how anyone can support it.

Yeah, I'm never going to shed a tear over Cercei's fate even if she gets the Reek treatment times ten. She's such an incredibly horrible person that I no longer have any sort of sympathy for her.

Don't get me wrong, the Walk itself was not justified by any means and it's horribly sexist, but I do think merely seeing it as punishing a woman for having sex is seeing the tree before the forest. It's a power play. The HS already has proof of her adultery (as much as proof counts in Westeros) and uses that to ''break'' her via the Walk. Obviously he doesn't expect her to have an undead killing machine as her champion AND that Varys would kill Kevan, but apart from that it would have been a fairly solid plan to take the Queen out of the game.

Plus, she tried to have the exact same thing done to Margaery for half her arc. Forgive me if I can't find an ounce of pity for such a rotten, hypocritical bitch.

So we should all be misogynists to see the entire story? I suppose Ser Gregor was saving the realm according to this logic when he raped Elia. Such noble acts should be awarded, not criticized... Dear lord... :stunned: :stunned: :stunned:

This is not about exonerating Cersei from numerous crimes. She is one of the worst persons in ASOIAF universe, and she deserves to be punished for everything she did. But please, don't tell me that we have to enjoy when a woman is being mind raped because she had sex. The entire WOS, and the justification behind it is simply nonsensical. And the worst part was that her worst crimes, no ALL her ACTUAL crimes are unpunished. I find no satisfaction in seeing one woman being tormented for having intercourse with someone. No matter who that woman is.

[Corvinus85]

Hey if you guys are going to diverge the main topic of this thread because of some interpretation disagreement, can you at least make it about Stannis? :)

[E-Ro]

I confess Im not a brony, and I dont know were these vicious rumors come from, but be assured they have no basis in reality.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It annoys me when I'm accused of applying 21st century western ideals because my moral system comes from my parents, one of whom is from New Delhi-and you haven't seen horrible, orthodox conservatives until you've seen New Delhi-and grew up in tiny village in India and the other's from Bihar. I grew up in Saudi Arabia and most of my early morality grew from Enid Blyton, Disney, Bollywood and Victorian literature.

Y'all, if I'm making higher moral demands than the average resident of the Land of the Free, maybe I'm not the one with the problem.

The problem, at least to me, with the whole 21st century ideals and stuff isn't about us but about the character.

For instance, let's take Robert, who I completely dislike.

He's accused of "raping" Cersei, and it's ok for us to not like what he did. But for Robert he's not doing wrong, he's not aware of a concept called "marital rape" because for him, being both a husband and a King, he's right about asking sex to his wife whenever he wants and it's her duty to please him and give him heirs. I can't say Robert is a bad person for doing THAT because in his culture, he's not wrong about having marital rights.

But, in his culture and set of morals, he's wrong about whoring. Yes, he's not the only one, but fathering bastards and cheating on your wife, specially being the King, is dishonouring and he knows and he doesn't care. There, he's wrong (although I wouldn't say "bad person" either).

[Dofs]

The problem is that WOS about Cersei having sex with someone while being a widow. I know all Cersei's numerous crimes and I wish she pays for them. But for having sex with someone? That was misogynist crap I generally don't support. And the way it's written in the books, I honestly don't know how anyone can support it.

The reason I have brought up exactly Blue Bard is because Cersei went Ramsay-level on him so that he exactly admits that he had sex with someone. Cersei herself 'punished' someone for sex. The sex that never happened! At least Cersei was sleeping around. As a reader I don't consider WOS as a punishment for just having sex. And I don't think it is supposed to be viewed as one. Sure in the story it is. But for me it's just something bad happened to Cersei. The same way Vargo Hoat didn't 'punish' Jaime for anything. It's just something bad happened to him. WOS is the result of everything Cersei did as a regent. And for me, for Blue Bard alone she deserved WOS. Sure, it was a very unpleasant and disgusting read. Although it gets much more pleasant if you read Blue Bard's torture scene before WOS.

[The Summer Islander]

I was a huge Stainnis fan from the beginning. But my favor with him is starting to wane....... :leaving:

[rodrick the wrestler]

I google the winds of winter everyday to see if there is any news, along with checking grrm's website and blog.