Comics X: The Great Ten

[red snow]

I don't think she's a guest star, really. Maybe you're thinking of Superman/Wonder Woman? I know that she's meant to be a co-star there, but at least the beginning was fairly Supes-centric.

In her own book, she's the star, but there you've got a writer who was told the new 52 was a reboot and actually took it seriously enough to revamp the character. Now she's centered much more on Greek mythology, but since she was appearing in other books the rest of the DCU's uneven about the changes outside her own book, and it will probably all be massively retconned in a few years. Now, it is good, but if dis-continuity bothers you, not sure how you'd feel about it.

It sounds great to me but scanning review sites reviewers often saying the book is great but you could remove wonder woman and it'd still be good. Which wouldn't really be an issue for me. I've yet to give it a go but it seems like a rare case of Azzaello doing a good superhero book. Probably because it isn't one. Love his two Batman stories and 100 bullets though.

I wasn't impressed either. Not sure if I'll pick up the next issue, probably not.

Picked up the first issue of "Trees", it was interesting enough, could have potential.

Think Trees will be a trade for me if Ellis ever gets to finishing it :P

New Saga is decent. fairly slow except for the ending. The art is as beautiful and the design for the tree/bush woman is amazing. She's super cute.

[Lady Octarina]

I still haven't tried the current Wonder Woman title because Azzarello rarely writes anything I enjoy. Plus, I've seen a lot of people saying it's far too violent and untrue to the character, which doesn't help it. Is that correct?

Only read the opening arc of young avengers but was really impressed. Then again it could be the amazing art and Loki that carries it. I also like Avengers Arena and still need to try out the sequel.

Avengers Arena was great, but Undercover is even better. So disappointing that it's getting cancelled...

[red snow]

Avengers Arena was great, but Undercover is even better. So disappointing that it's getting cancelled...

I feel partly responsible not having bought any copies yet. I fear they ruined this ones chances by association with arena. Which is a shame as Arena was great but had an appalling premise.

[Galactus]

For those moreinto the bad side: Here's Linkara reviewing Holy Terror...

[Jon AS]

For those moreinto the bad side: Here's Linkara reviewing Holy Terror...

Heh, I stumbled onto those reviews when looking into All Star Batman and Robin, I think. That looks several orders of magnitude worse, though.

[Galactus]

The weird thing is that you can kind of tell that underneath all the crap and laziness there's a competent artist: The book looks horrible, but it's horrible in a way that's not merely the result of the artist being unskilled.

[Ouroboros]

Avengers Arena was great, but Undercover is even better. So disappointing that it's getting cancelled...

This is literally the only comics related board or area I've ever frequented where Avengers Arena/Undercover gets any kind of praise and it deeply confuses me, since what I've read of both has been nothing short of some of the worst comics of the past two years.

[Nictarion]

Nvm

[Jon AS]

The weird thing is that you can kind of tell that underneath all the crap and laziness there's a competent artist: The book looks horrible, but it's horrible in a way that's not merely the result of the artist being unskilled.

Well, I was using 'looks' more in a figurative sense. The most offensive aspect of that comic (or any Miller comic I'm aware of) is not the art.

[red snow]

This is literally the only comics related board or area I've ever frequented where Avengers Arena/Undercover gets any kind of praise and it deeply confuses me, since what I've read of both has been nothing short of some of the worst comics of the past two years.

I enjoyed Arena a lot. I thought I'd hate it but the whole "battle Royale" concept does create higher stakes. I think it probably helps that I didn't know anything about the cast from their former series - and I eventually just suspended disbelief in that the "parents" knew nothing about the abduction. If I ever get around to reading "runaways" I may retroactively hate the book.

RE Holy Terror. I'm almost tempted to read out of morbid curiosity. The weird thing with Miller's are is that you can see the "evolution" of his style. Back in the "wolverine" days it is very restricted but we can see the more chaotic style appear in Dark Knight Returns and Sin City, etc. It just seems like the style has reached the stage where it looks pretty bad but I suspect that's what he's aiming for (just not wanting us to dislike it). Or it could be that he's turned into a raving mad man which may well fit the tone of "holy Terror" from what I've heard. I like the imaging of him at the drawing board shouting at those terrorists and the wish-fulfillment of beating them.

[Jon AS]

RE Holy Terror. I'm almost tempted to read out of morbid curiosity. The weird thing with Miller's are is that you can see the "evolution" of his style. Back in the "wolverine" days it is very restricted but we can see the more chaotic style appear in Dark Knight Returns and Sin City, etc. It just seems like the style has reached the stage where it looks pretty bad but I suspect that's what he's aiming for (just not wanting us to dislike it). Or it could be that he's turned into a raving mad man which may well fit the tone of "holy Terror" from what I've heard. I like the imaging of him at the drawing board shouting at those terrorists and the wish-fulfillment of beating them.

You can also see the seeds of the writing as far back as The Dark Knight Returns. Batman is a sadistic hyper macho who enjoys the violence he inflicts on criminals. Most of said criminals are the quintessential enemy who just wants to destroy "our" way of life: faceless goons that exist solely to rape and murder. The authorities are corrupt and incompetent and (together with the media) are more concerned about bringing Batman in than in fighting crime. Superman is useless.

There's even a guy who goes crazy and sees all women as whores. Oh, and Selina Kyle runs an escort service after retiring from the life of a catburglar.

The difference is of course that I was always under the impression that this was supposed to be a deconstruction, whereas today it seems to be seen as a reflection of his actual worldview.

[red snow]

Yeah, his anti-liberal stance has always been strong. It's funny how in DKR it can be read as satire but maybe that was never the case? But most of his work seems to be about someone knowing what's right and having to fight those protecting the bad-guys from "justice".

[Jon AS]

Well, back to comics that can be enjoyed without reservation.

Gillen's Journey into Mystery is really good. Having read Young Avengers before, I knew what was coming in the end, but it still packed significant emotional punch. Damn you indeed.

There's also some clever meta-commentary along the way, it seems to me, like the lesson of writing characters as well rounded rather than just using them as plot devices. And now that I think about it, the whole thing could also easily be a commentary on the impossiblity of changing the status quo of the Marvel universe. Almost everybody agrees change is good and desirable, yet in the end the inertia of the world wins out. Though it still manages to be almost triumphant, too, since Gillen manages to slip in the heroic sacrafice of a major character that is unlikely to be undone in the near future.

In conclusion: people should read this.

This positive impression gave me the confidence to pick up the first two story arcs in his Iron Man run. Coming at this as someone who mostly knows the character from the movies, I really enjoyed that and think Tony displays the right combination of raging egomania, towering arrogance and self-destructive tendencies as well as his more heroic qualities. In the opening arc he sets himself a mission and rejects any of suggestion he should maybe ask for the help of any of the countless other heroes he knows. Instead he builds more specialised suits and tends to feel pretty smug whenever he's doing well (at one point musing how he'd best break it to Black Widow that his new stealth suits makes her spy skillset obsolete), right up until things inevitable go pear shaped.

The second arc I could see as a bit more controversial. It involves a retcon, a writing device I hate with a passion. Luckily it's not an attempt to completely redefine Tony, just to attack his self-image with an attack that manages to pierce the shell of his egotism (helped by him essentially being on walkabout trying to get his head straight). In the end, the true revelation about his past appears so mundane (given that this takes place in the Marvel universe and the fate of humanity had just hung in the balance), it's almost comical.

Yeah, I'm really enjoying Gillen as a writer. I think once I'm off my current Marvel and DC trip I should check out some of his original work. Until then, I've got a few evenings without World Cup football to kill and still have some stuff I picked up in sales, like Gaiman's 1602, Nextwave (admittedly I mostly picked that up because of this cover), and Squadron Supreme (since I was in the mood for some superhero deconstruction and I'm now a bit more familiar with the DC heroes this is based on).

[red snow]

Gaiman's 1602 is only any good if you want to see your marvel heroes in a period drama. I can't even remember what actually happened in it. I certainly didn't bother with any of the spin-offs that followed the series up.

Nextwave is something I missed. I should catch up on it because it's something Ellis actually finished. I imagine it's a similar non-house style like Hawkeye and Superior foes are these days. That's a great cover, I agree.

Squadron Supreme. It is essentially an adult version of the Justice League Marvel-style. I really enjoyed the first 6-12 issues. When it came back though it was no longer a MAX title and lost its way. This became even more of a problem when JMS stopped writing. Similar to "the authority" in that sense where it was watered down to be more appealing and in doing so lost the readers who initially liked it. There was at least one good mini though which was "whoever the batman analogue is" with art by Steve Dillon.

[Jon AS]

Squadron Supreme. It is essentially an adult version of the Justice League Marvel-style. I really enjoyed the first 6-12 issues. When it came back though it was no longer a MAX title and lost its way. This became even more of a problem when JMS stopped writing. Similar to "the authority" in that sense where it was watered down to be more appealing and in doing so lost the readers who initially liked it. There was at least one good mini though which was "whoever the batman analogue is" with art by Steve Dillon.

I think there are different incarnations of this title. The one I've got is from the 80s, was written by Mark Gruenwald and, to be honest, looks rather cheesy.

[Kalbear]

Nextwave is the second best thing that Ellis has ever done. It was absolutely amazing.

[Lady Octarina]

Gaiman's 1602 is only any good if you want to see your marvel heroes in a period drama. I can't even remember what actually happened in it. I certainly didn't bother with any of the spin-offs that followed the series up.

That's an interesting way of looking at things lol

1602 was one of the first Marvel books I read when I restarted reading comics in my late teens (the others were Marvels and Loki), so I thought it was one of the most brilliant things ever made, along with the other two. Okay, now I see it's inferior to those, but still incredibly fun, particularly the take on the X-Men. I do remember hating Virginia Dare, though. A few months ago, I read 1602 - New World and, wow, probably among the worst comic book sequel ever written.

This is literally the only comics related board or area I've ever frequented where Avengers Arena/Undercover gets any kind of praise and it deeply confuses me, since what I've read of both has been nothing short of some of the worst comics of the past two years.

I enjoyed Arena a lot. I thought I'd hate it but the whole "battle Royale" concept does create higher stakes. I think it probably helps that I didn't know anything about the cast from their former series - and I eventually just suspended disbelief in that the "parents" knew nothing about the abduction. If I ever get around to reading "runaways" I may retroactively hate the book.

I agree with everything red snow said - actually, you can probably see us mocking the book when it was announced several threads back :cool4:

I had read a couple arcs of Avengers Academy and Runaways, but I wasn't that invested in those books, and the characters I did grow attached to either weren't in Arena (like Finesse), or survived it (Nico). It would probably be a very different situation if Marvel had included the Young Avengers in that series.

[Ouroboros]

I agree with everything red snow said - actually, you can probably see us mocking the book when it was announced several threads back :cool4:

I had read a couple arcs of Avengers Academy and Runaways, but I wasn't that invested in those books, and the characters I did grow attached to either weren't in Arena (like Finesse), or survived it (Nico). It would probably be a very different situation if Marvel had included the Young Avengers in that series.

Irrespective of attachment to characters I still don't get why you guys liked it. The plot was really, really badly written. It made zero sense as its own book or as part of a broader collection of books. The characters all acted like idiots to keep the drama going (this part I suppose relies on being more invested in previous stories featuring the characters), there were poorly explained twists and big gaping plot holes left, right and centre. It very much felt like a contrived scenario to begin with, that relied on further contrivances to keep the plot ticking along. Even as its own story it made no internal sense.

And Undercover has just kept that train running. Everyone acts like an idiot in these books because that's the only way the plot can work.

This is just going to be one of those things that's going to leave me eternally baffled.

[Lady Octarina]

And Undercover has just kept that train running. Everyone acts like an idiot in these books because that's the only way the plot can work.

It's not just on these books; Marvel makes entire events Avengers vs X-Men from their characters acting like idiots. Hell, nearly all issues of Uncanny avengers published so far (certainly the ones before #18) all come from that premise, but better elaborated! And, honestly? I'd rather read that kind of story than those pretentious plots that go nowhere Hickman, or those books that only work if they're really smart, but the writer has a lot less talent than anyone has ever dared tell them Millar.

[Nictarion]

So Superior Spider-Man is coming back, but for only a couple issues? I was glad to see the adds for it as I just dropped ASM from my pull list, but it sounds like a "lost" story involving time travel.

This week was pretty decent, everything I got was good. Lazarus, East of West, Thief of Thieves, Moon Knight, and Magneto. Lazarus # 9 I thought was especially good. Really loving this title so far.