Is Arya on her way to becoming a female Sandor?

[boojam]

I don't think so. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that "Mercy" was originally supposed to be the final Arya chapter in ADwD. Not sure if it was cut due to page numbers, or if they just decided that it made a better beginning chapter than end chapter.

Only thing I ever read was that George had written that chapter some while back, but he never said explicitly is was supposed to be in ADwD, at least I can't find a reference like that.

It does seem that it would be early in WoW...

It's such an odd chapter to have right after THE UGLY LITTLE GIRL , I think there are only two Arya chapters in ADwD ....

Arya seems to have changed , well she did do some changing in those ADwD chapters, but psychologically and maybe even physically GRRM gives a portrait of her almost being a grown woman, something both eerie and lyrical about her at the same time. She slips out of Mercy into Arya and back again into Mercy ... odd thing is both Mercy and Arya are killers.

Arya may be the most interesting character in Winds of Winter.

[Reek Havoc]

Only thing I ever read was that George had written that chapter some while back, but he never said explicitly is was supposed to be in ADwD, at least I can't find a reference like that.

Here ya go. Straight from GRRM's Not a Blog:

The upload of the new sample chapter from THE WINDS OF WINTER created so much traffic to my website and blog that the servers crashed. This is the first time I've been able to get up myself all day.

Anyway, it seems to be easing off some. And we are looking at ways to increase capacity.

The "reviews" of the chapter have been amazingly enthusiastic as well. Thanks. I am pleased that so many of you -- thousands and maybe tens of thousands, it would seem -- enjoyed "Mercy" so much.

I mentioned that this chapter had quite a history. It's true. The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous "five year gap," her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived. Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books. Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS. Of course, it has been revised, tightened, polished, and tweaked at every step of the way, so the version on my website has some significant differences from the "five year gap" version.

[Darksnider05]

I also find people saying how much Arya has 'changed' to be odd, considering her killing of Raff matches her killing of The Tickler literally exactly.

I don't see Arya's progression as the darkening people seem to take it as. She had been vicious and angry - albeit righteously, not randomly - since literally the first book. Reread GoT more carefully, there are telltale signs throughout of her nature. After Ned is injured and wakes up, Veyon Poole (I think it was him anyway) tells Ned that Arya hasn't said anything since his injury and is taking it very badly. "I've never seen such anger in a little girl before," he says. She is naturally like that when it comes to righteousness, that's her natural mode when faced with injustice and cruelty.

Considering she's faced nothing BUT injustice and cruelty since King Robert's death, it's little wonder she's 'become' what she's become. I see her character arc as not so much a darkening as a gaining self-control. That's the difference between before and now. She kills Raff the same exact way, for the same exact reasons, with the same exact brutality and mercilessness she killed The Tickler. But now instead of a wild rage, there's calm control.

I think Arya is one of the most poorly-understood characters by the fanbase. We never meet a weak, meek, peaceful, helpless, benign little girl. She isn't that in GoT, and she certainly isn't that afterwards. From the beginning she is preternaturally self-reliant (a little girl who evaded capture and survived for days in the wilderness on her own after running away after the Joffrey incident; then escaped and survived even longer on her own in King's Landing), and, in matters of injustice and harm to "her people", gets extremely angry and dangerous and inflexible. She's been this character since the very beginning of the series, when she was a very little girl - all we've seen is her become increasingly self-controlled and capable. She's the same weapon she always was, with the same purpose she's always had, just honed. And she's been more or less consciously guiding herself the whole time precisely in order to hone the weapon she is and had (since the very beginning of the series) always been.

:agree:

[boojam]

Here ya go. Straight from GRRM's Not a Blog:

Yes I remember reading that.

However does explicitly say that it will be Arya's first chapter in Winds, tho my guess is that it will be.

If it is it is going to seem odd since the feeling I get is that Arya (Mercy) has been with the mummers of the Gate for some long period of time, like a year or so.

Arya's whole persona feels 'aged' up (as I have said before), she seems an 'evolved' Arya... a new and more mature Arya.

I like it ... as George says this was to be after an time-gap which did not appear in the books, an omission ,that to my mind, gives an odd cast to Feast and Dance.

I don't know what the show will do with this , they may rework Mercy, but there is so much stuff that happens in Braavos with Arya in in Feast and Dance , even tho it's just 5 chapters (I think) there is a lot to work with. Maisie Williams will be 18 at the start of season 6 , and it's almost as if GRRM has gotten her to that age in Mercy.

[Reek Havoc]

Yes I remember reading that.

However does explicitly say that it will be Arya's first chapter in Winds, tho my guess is that it will be.

If it is it is going to seem odd since the feeling I get is that Arya (Mercy) has been with the mummers of the Gate for some long period of time, like a year or so.

Arya's whole persona feels 'aged' up (as I have said before), she seems an 'evolved' Arya... a new and more mature Arya.

I like it ... as George says this was to be after an time-gap which did not appear in the books, an omission ,that to my mind, gives an odd cast to Feast and Dance.

I don't know what the show will do with this , they may rework Mercy, but there is so much stuff that happens in Braavos with Arya in in Feast and Dance , even tho it's just 5 chapters (I think) there is a lot to work with. Maisie Williams will be 18 at the start of season 6 , and it's almost as if GRRM has gotten her to that age in Mercy.

Explicitly? No, but it's suggested.

But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS.

And for the record, that wasn't your original question, which was what I was aiming to answer.

Only thing I ever read was that George had written that chapter some while back, but he never said explicitly is was supposed to be in ADwD, at least I can't find a reference like that.

Reference found and posted above.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Sandor was/is a dog. Arya is a wolf.

[boojam]

Sandor was/is a dog. Arya is a wolf.

In the book Sandor called her 'she-wolf' several times, alas, a term the show never used.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Only thing I ever read was that George had written that chapter some while back, but he never said explicitly is was supposed to be in ADwD, at least I can't find a reference like that.

It does seem that it would be early in WoW...

It's such an odd chapter to have right after THE UGLY LITTLE GIRL , I think there are only two Arya chapters in ADwD ....

Arya seems to have changed , well she did do some changing in those ADwD chapters, but psychologically and maybe even physically GRRM gives a portrait of her almost being a grown woman, something both eerie and lyrical about her at the same time. She slips out of Mercy into Arya and back again into Mercy ... odd thing is both Mercy and Arya are killers.

Arya may be the most interesting character in Winds of Winter.

I agree, but the Mercy Chapter may not be the very next Arya chapter to appear in WoW. I thought that GRRM released this chapter shortly before the TV Show aired the episode where Arya kills Poliver because he wanted to make sure everyone knew that the dialogue in the show was based on his original work in the Mercy chapter. There may very well be another chapter or two between last Arya chapter in ADwD and the first Arya chapter in WoW.

[Fire and Beer]

arya believes in good and bad, and she has a strong moral code, is aware of it, and follows it, for better or worse. she grew up around people of honor and justice, and based on that and the shit that she went through, along with all her pent up anger, delivers what she believes to be justice to people who hurt her or people she cared about accordingly (in her eyes)

the hound grew up around his psycho bro. he got his face burned in the fire for playing with his brother's toy. innately, the hound seems to be a good person (by some accounts) but bc of his traumatic past and other shit he doesn't hold the strong moral compass that arya holds. to him there is simply what we do and what others do in response; he doesn't divide the world into two sides. he has seem evil and he has seen good, and he refuses to be defined by either.

[willofDorne]

Please, Arya is a Stark. She'll never be like Sandor Clegane. The minute the Faceless Men ask her to do something she doesn't think is right, she'll ship out of there, and vice versa. I see this ending in a few ways, her killing someone at the temple, someone at the temple killing her, or her leaving peacefully, or even her escaping and being chased. Maybe it's my imagination but I don't see the Faceless Men as being tolerant of people using them for training, and then bailing. I think they'll require something of her and she'll have Faceless Men coming after her and chasing her all the way to Westeros. It could be my imagination, lol, but that's what I see happening.

[Fire and Beer]

i think the hound is innately a good person, but past experiences have shaped him into something..truly hopeless and reckless-empty.

His life is nothing but a series of orders, and perhaps its easier then waking up and facing the reality of his pathetic life.

i think for sandor there was always an urge to be the good guy and do the right thing, but then there was always another voice in his head saying, "what's the point? what am i fighting for? sod it, whats another dead kid when i've taken dozens of innocent lives?"

like they say, after the first kill, the others that follow matter less and less, and the burden of every life you've taken sucks out whats left of you.

i think thats the danger for arya- after she kills her way through her hit list, and uses up all that anger which is essentially what is feeding her and giving her energy and strength- how does she live with herself? what does she live for without revenge? how does she keep going without the fire and blood?

its hard to tell, but i would say at this point that is the most similar thing she has with the hound.

the hound also lived for revenge-of his brother-which really is what drove him the entire time-until he died.

"revenge is a stony path, and you must dig two graves to succeed"

[DogLover]

Yes, I think, in a way Arya is becoming a lot like the Hound, though not so literally. They do influence each other profoundly and their personal paths are so very complex and layered with haunting parallels as well as huge differences. They act as foils to one another--the Hound, when he crosses paths with Arya, is struggling to find his moral compass. At this time Arya is losing hers. After they part, we have the Sandor on the Quiet Isle in an assumed state of self-reflection and Arya, at the other end of the spectrum, becoming an assassin.

[IRON BANK]

Sandor killed w/o purpose. It seems the facelessman have an agenda we have just not had it revealed to us as the readers what it is yet. It seems the IB will more than likely want the removal of certain Lannisters and players in KL. Cersie has refused to pay the IB. with the Faceless men being in Braavos it would seem that This guild of Assasins would probably be directed by the most powerful resource in the city. Arya will probably be utilized in this mission and we all know she has alot of the Lannister contigent on her list. I feel she will have not one shred of mercy on who she is directed to kill.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

I do hope so!!

[Kaguya]

Yes, I think, in a way Arya is becoming a lot like the Hound, though not so literally. They do influence each other profoundly and their personal paths are so very complex and layered with haunting parallels as well as huge differences. They act as foils to one another--the Hound, when he crosses paths with Arya, is struggling to find his moral compass. At this time Arya is losing hers. After they part, we have the Sandor on the Quiet Isle in an assumed state of self-reflection and Arya, at the other end of the spectrum, becoming an assassin.

This Is what I mean

[Woman of War]

I just find questions about right or wrong irrelevant in Sandor's case. He spent fifteen years as Cersei's bodyguard and enforcer and there had been no sign that he ever displayed any hesitation or scruples about following his orders. In fact during Sansa's arc he tries to beat it into her skull that questions of right or wrong are pointless and all that matters is strength. ........

Exactly.

Reducing Sandor to a mindless Lannister tool who bears no responsability for his deeds is definitely taking away from his character, making him boring. Sandor is meant to be evil and to know that he is evil, making a conscious decision to be so, while most villains are delusional and see themselves as innocent (I was ordered to ....)

Compare him to Melville's dark hero, Jeff Costello: Le Samurai, who cracks in the end as well and dies for it. Not for one moment this hitman can be excused by "he was ordered to" and yet - or because of it - he is a hugely fascinating character.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Samouraï

[ShadowCat Rivers]

There is one thing that makes a huge difference in their respective formative experiences.

Sandor was harmed by his own family, not only by Gregor but by his own father who just covered it up. This is not a detail; it is very significant in pushing Sandor into the belief that everyone is for him/herself against the world, that the world is made for the strong and either you become strong or you "deserve" to die for being weak.

On the contrary, Arya's family is always with her, even when she thinks they are all dead. Their memory follows her everywhere and if this wasn't enough already, there is always Nymeria. Arya has a very knightly mindset (even if some would describe it as distorted), that the strong have a duty to protect the weak and that they deserve to die if they do the opposite. This is evident in her thought process involving her kills, too (Dareon for abandoning his companions, the insurance man for cheating on widows and orphans), when she told the KOM that the first FM should kill the masters, not the slaves etc.

They do have some things in common, but the differences are a lot more significant.

[Woman of War]

There is one thing that makes a huge difference in their respective formative experiences.

Sandor was harmed by his own family, not only by Gregor but by his own father who just covered it up. This is not a detail; it is very significant in pushing Sandor into the belief that everyone is for him/herself against the world, that the world is made for the strong and either you become strong or you "deserve" to die for being weak......

.

Off topic, sorry, but the way you describe this there is a really fascinating parallel between Sandor and Tyrion here. Tyrion tries to become strong in his own way and refuses to die the death deserved by weakness, while Sandor refuses to be weak.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Off topic, sorry, but the way you describe this there is a really fascinating parallel between Sandor and Tyrion here. Tyrion tries to become strong in his own way and refuses to die the death deserved by weakness, while Sandor refuses to be weak.

I agree...

ETA: and this could be a reason why Sandor hates Tyrion. It sort of breaks his notion of strength and weakness.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

When it comes down to it deserter or just obnoxious asshole the reason she did it was because she wanted to. We're talking about someone who is suffering from one of the most severe cases of PTSD ever and as a result has become fixated with violence and murder. Someone who has already killed for no reason other than revenge who has a hit list with names still to check off and is in fact training to become a master assassin why is the idea that that person might enjoy killing so tough for some people.

The reason she wanted to kill him, though, is because he was a deserter of The Night's Watch. I'm not sure that I can recall Arya ever killing anyone just for being an obnoxious asshole. It seems to take more than asshattery to get Arya to kill.