The Stone Beast Breathing Shadow Fire v2

[Mithras]

The first thread is locked here.

Many people are intrigued by what shadow fire means. It is easy to think that as dragon fire or the greyscale bacteria (then why is it described as fire?) but visions and prophecies in ASOIAF do not tend to have literal meanings.

There is a novel called Shadow Fires (1987) by Dean Koontz, who wrote an introduction to Songs of the Dying Earth edited by GRRM and Dozois. I am quite sure that GRRM has read this horror novel.

I did not read the book but the plot summary suggests that Tyrion has some Eric in him.

So is it possible that GRRM used shadow fire in the same context with the title of Koontz’s novel? If so, what does it mean?

From the plot summary, it looks like shadow fire represents Eric’s fall into madness and transformation into a monster in his quest to cheat death, which is rooted in his fear of meeting his childhood abuser in hell if he dies and goes there.

Coming back to the vision of Dany, I think a case can be made for Tyrion being the stone beast breathing shadow fire in comparison to Eric of Shadow Fires.

Tyrion was abused all his life. He has an undying quest, to have the love of the people. This quest is driving him to his doom, similar to how Stannis is advancing to his demise because of his quest to conquer the IT. People will never love Tyrion just like people will never accept Stannis as their king. This fact only makes them more miserable and dangerous as the story goes on.

The Bloody Hand reveals a monster that shakes hand with the death itself. We also see that Tyrion nearly strangled Penny.

Tyrion, who is originally a lion, is now mutating into some beast, which is stone as a result of his greyscale. Shadow fire represents his growing madness and instability, maybe his creeping death due to greyscale as well.

The structure of HotU visions suggest that the stone beast breathing shadow fire should be Dany’s mount, which she rides to love.

The structure also implies that there must be a lie related to Tyrion. Of course the fact that he did not kill Joffrey can be this lie to be slain by Dany. However, the other lies in the triplet are related to fake identities. Does this mean that Tyrion’s parentage is fake?

Although I don’t buy the Aerys rape theory, I think Gerion might have an affair with Joanna and he may be the father of Tyrion. If he is the corsair king, he will bump into Dany and Tyrion. That means he should reveal secret family history which cannot be written in any history books by the maesters.

Therefore, Tyrion may be declared to be Tyrion Hill by Dany.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I admit that I'm not up to date on the first, locked, thread, and at the moment I don't have the time to read the entire thing, but two things:

1. Isn't Dany supposed to slay multiple lies? In that case, Tyrion having killed Joffrey (which is a lie), might only be one of the lies she "slays". It would be nice if someone proved Tyrion's innocence.

2. Are there any hints to suggest that Gerion and Joanna had a relationship?

[Konradsmith]

I haven't read the previous thread, but, assuming that your suggestion that Tyrion could be the stone beast is true, would the smoking tower be the Tower of the Hand?

[Mithras]

I haven't read the previous thread, but, assuming that your suggestion that Tyrion could be the stone beast is true, would the smoking tower be the Tower of the Hand?

Exactly. I have given the following quote in the previous thread:

At two hundred and thirty, the shaft was black as pitch, but he could feel the warm air flowing from the tunnel to his left, like the breath of some great beast. He poked about awkwardly with a foot and edged off the ladder.

Tyrion was going to kill his father, which is one of the most important milestones in his descent into madness. Later we will see that Cersei will burn the Tower.

[Konradsmith]

If AFFC and ADWD had been the one book they were intended be, it would've been awesome to reinforce this connection. Just imagine a Tyrion chapter right after the burning of the tower chapter...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Is there confirmation that Tyrion has greyscale? Last I knew he had no symptoms.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is there confirmation that Tyrion has greyscale? Last I knew he had no symptoms.

There is no confirmation ;) He hasn't shown any signs of having greyscale yet.

[The Maiden Fair]

Is there confirmation that Tyrion has greyscale? Last I knew he had no symptoms.

The argument was set forth in the previous thread that he might be asymptomatic, a sort of Typhoid Mary of Greyscale and "The Pale Mare".

[The Maiden Fair]

I would also like to point out that the use of the word beast is often argued as meaning it's something unusual or mythical. I disagree, as that is not what the text supports.

"Beast" is also often used to describe common animals, sometimes overly vicious or large ones, but also things like dogs, horses, shadowcats, Coldhand's Elk, elephants, etc. In the DwD prologue, Varamyr describes all of his skins as beasts, even his Eagle.

When talking with Tyrion, Illyrio says, "You Westorosi are all the same. You sew some beast on a scrap of silk, and suddenly you are all lions or dragons or eagles."

Of the brazen beasts: Shavepate's men went about as jackals, owls, and other beasts, keeping their true faces hidden.

From Tyrion: Big grey elephants were not uncommon either, huge beasts with castles on their backs.

There are plenty of other examples of this throughout the text. If we discard the idea that "beast" means something strange and inexplicable, it becomes somewhat more likely that the stone beast is something else entirely.

When I searched the books for instances of "beast" and "dragon", I got zilch. No one seems the think the dragons are simple "beasts", except obviously Illyrio in the quote above. (Edit: Actually, this isn't true. In a Quentyn chapter, The Corpsekiller calls Dany's dragons 'beasts', and Quentyn thinks of them as beasts. So really, it's used to describe anything that isn't human.)

And just for fun, we have this: Aemon: "...Once, Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." (Smoke and steam = Shadow (of) Fire?)

[Edited for clarity.]

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Tyrion was going to kill his father, which is one of the most important milestones in his descent into madness. Later we will see that Cersei will burn the Tower.

Couldn't Cersei being the stone beast?

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

We know she's going mad, and she might end up burning everything.

[Mithras]

Couldn't Cersei being the stone beast?

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

We know she's going mad, and she might end up burning everything.

In that case, one should ask what the mount Dany must ride to love is and what is the lie she is supposed to slay.

Prophecy 2: three mounts must you ride... one to bed (Mount 1) and one to dread (Mount 2) and one to love (Mount 3)

Mount 1: (to bed) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Mount 2: (to dread) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Mount 3: (to love) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

... mother of dragons, slayer of lies

[Konradsmith]

Paper Weaver, who are your candidates for the other two mounts? The consensus seems to be that the blue-eyed king is Stannis and the cloth dragon is fAegon but mayhaps you have a differing view of interest that you've articulated elsewhere.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In that case, one should ask what the mount Dany must ride to love is and what is the lie she is supposed to slay.

Prophecy 2: three mounts must you ride... one to bed (Mount 1) and one to dread (Mount 2) and one to love (Mount 3)

Mount 1: (to bed) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Mount 2: (to dread) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Mount 3: (to love) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

... mother of dragons, slayer of lies

What you've got listed as the mounts are actually the lies she's supposed to slay. Are you saying they are tied together? I always thought those parts were meant to be separate.

[fuelpagan_tw]

I think it is a mistake to assume Dany is the only side that will have Dragons.

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. [ADwD, Chapter 49, Jon]

Castle Black might be one of them. But I'm pretty sure Winterfell and Dragonstone are hiding Stone Dragons that Azor Ahai will awaken. The shadow fire will be similar to the shadow baby Melisandre birthed.

(This is where those buried in the crypts of Winterfell will come into the story.) ;)

Dany has the Fire Dragons.

Jon will have the Stone Dragons.

My guess is the Night's King will have the Ice Dragon hiding beneath the wall.

And there will be Sea Dragons as well, although I'm not sure who will lead them. Maybe the Greyjoys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But Dany's dragons were woken out of stone: the petrified eggs

[Mithras]

What you've got listed as the mounts are actually the lies she's supposed to slay. Are you saying they are tied together? I always thought those parts were meant to be separate.

I think she will ride those mounts to slay those lies.

For example,

1. She will slay the lie that Stannis is AAR by riding the mount she beds. That is a real person she will have sex or had sex previously. The lie here is associated with identities.

2. She will slay the lie that Aegon is fake by riding the mount she dreads. I think that mount is Drogon. He will grow bigger and wilder after so many wars that Dany will start to fear him. She will nonetheless win the Dance against fAegon thanks to Drogon, which I think will be the only dragon to survive the Dance. The lie here is associated with identities.

3. Feel free to guess. :) I am not so sure about this one. Generally the third visions in each triplet are the hardest to crack.

[kiasyd]

What you've got listed as the mounts are actually the lies she's supposed to slay. Are you saying they are tied together? I always thought those parts were meant to be separate.

That's my understanding as well. I'm not sure that the three mounts mounts are correlate directly to the lies.

[fuelpagan_tw]

But Dany's dragons were woken out of stone: the petrified eggs

So Melisandre is running around trying to fulfill a prophecy that already happened before her character was ever introduced?

I don't think so. Dany's dragons were born, not woken up. There are a few references to Mel trying to awaken the "Stone Dragons".

[Mithras]

But Dany's dragons were woken out of stone: the petrified eggs

That is Illyrio's claim. The description of Dany's eggs are exactly the same with the dragon egg in TMK. In fact, the description of Eleana Targaryen's egg is very similar to Viserion's egg. I think there is a good chance that Dany's eggs were Targaryen eggs stolen by Varys and found their way to Illyrio.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That is Illyrio's claim. The description of Dany's eggs are exactly the same with the dragon egg in TMK. In fact, the description of Eleana Targaryen's egg is very similar to Viserion's egg. I think there is a good chance that Dany's eggs were Targaryen eggs stolen by Varys and found their way to Illyrio.

Ah, the eggs most likely had indeed been Targaryen eggs, I agree. But that doesn´t mean they weren´t petrified.. Targaryens had been dragonriders for a long time ;)