Daphne of House Vakarian Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I think it's simpler than that. I think they've just run out of steam, and lost their vision. If that's the case, then if they have any modicum of decency...They should pass it down to someone new and fresh who actually cares and respects the source material and is capable of getting the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphne of House Vakarian Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 In my country, we have a big GOT show fan community website and I think it's the only one, they organize give aways, events etc.(with almost 80.000 likes on FB), anyway, on their website there was a poll on which episode was the best of the season and as expected the majority of the votes went to the season finale.This only shows how much the people who only watch the show, don't know any better.They think it's the best show ever and whatever happens on there is perfect...because the haven't read and maybe will never read the books.If you take this worldwide, they are the majority and since they worship the show...D&D will continue going down the path they've chosen.Book readers being the minority , don't matter anymore.We only matter to GRRM,but not to D&D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 The only 100% good arc this season has been, IMO, Jon's. I pretty much loved everything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crixus Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Flat reveal style is right. Also WTF reveal style. Everything has to be a "surprise" - no buildup. Even when they build up, the surprise is they don't show it, or it seems an afterthought to some "thematic" point they are trying to make that has nothing to do with what really matters. There's no sense of resolution, even when there is resolution, because none of it feels real. Yup. Tried convincing a friend to watch earlier on; he said 'from what little I've seen, it's basically people standing around insulting each other, or fighting.'! I can even understand that to a degree. Someone up thread mentioned D&D being overly fixated on grimdarkbleak, to the point they're losing many important moments.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 The only 100% good arc this season has been, IMO, Jon's. I pretty much loved everything about it. Jon was given wonderful scenes and Harington was really amazing, his best season yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Flat reveal style is right. Also WTF reveal style. Everything has to be a "surprise" - no buildup. Even when they build up, the surprise is they don't show it, or it seems an afterthought to some "thematic" point they are trying to make that has nothing to do with what really matters. There's no sense of resolution, even when there is resolution, because none of it feels real. Yep. I roll my eyes every time I read someone talk about the show foreshadowing something. LOL. The show doesn't do foreshadowing, or suspense, or buildup. They do surprise. I'm still mystified by what reason they think they had for changing around the knowledge of Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' in Robb and Cat's story. The only time they tried to do a suspense/mystery was the stupid 'who is the boy torturing Theon' and that was a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crixus Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 God, so much this; I'm still not over the whole weird Bran/Rickon thing. Wtf would they have the miller boys in, if Cat and Robb weren't going to find out? And they dragged that on to the point that when Cat finally does hear about them in S3, it's... dull. And muted. And utterly without emotion. And I'm not crticizing Fairley; she was absolutely fantastic in the role. I refer to the inexplicable choice of removing that subplot from S2, and then shoving it in afterthought style when Robb ambles up to Cat all 'your dad's dead and probably your sons too. But I get to bone Talisa!' Fuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackStark Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Yep. I roll my eyes every time I read someone talk about the show foreshadowing something. LOL. The show doesn't do foreshadowing, or suspense, or buildup. They do surprise. I'm still mystified by what reason they think they had for changing around the knowledge of Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' in Robb and Cat's story. The only time they tried to do a suspense/mystery was the stupid 'who is the boy torturing Theon' and that was a failure. It is funny (not really) because the ambiguity about Bran and Rickon's deaths only served to make Robb and Cat's subsequent actions seem worse because neither one had the excuse of being grief-stricken. Cat releasing Jaime looks differently (and less stupid and unforgiveable) if it is motivated by wanting to get her daughters home safely after discovering her sons have been killed and Robb would look less like a spoiled douche that broke his oath just he came across a hot piece of ass on the battlefield (though once you switched Jeyne for Talisa and made it about love rather than honor I am not sure what you could have done to alleviate the caddish nature of his actions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Ah, well, I ranted about the destruction of Robb and Cat's story for the entirety of last season, LOL. From the lack of Northern lords in his story, stupid modern Volantis nurse who doesn't know where Winterfell is, Robb as a selfish prick, Greywind death, Jamie's release, everything.... So, my expectations were much lower this season, and now I am amused by the crazy stuff the show does, like Arya and the Hound at the Vale and Brienne, the nicest character in the series, thugging out on the Hound, while "Asha" one of the most badass characters flees in fear of the big dogs and the guy with no shirt. Nitpicking the show is a form of relaxation now, because I much more know what to expe t though sometimes they still exceed even my low expectations for dumb pointlessness and weirdo decision making...like more time on beetles than Charles Dance death scene. They're funny guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crixus Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 The near-meetings between the Starks (and with other characters) that D&D have contrived this season remind me of old Bollywood films: overwrought, pointless melodramatic suspense that is neatly forgotten in like, the next second. See: Arya announcing herself at the Vale, Brienne meeting Arya, Bran seeing Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphne of House Vakarian Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 (...)Brienne, the nicest character in the series, thugging out on the Hound, while "Asha" one of the most badass characters flees in fear of the big dogs and the guy with no shirt. This. I mean, in Season 3 the moment Asha took the men and the ship to go rescue Theon, it was very epic.Even if it wasn't in the books.Her speech and all that, I loved the scenes but I knew that according to the book...Theon wasn't going to be rescued aparrently so I thought that maybe they could "reach" that conclusion and wrap up that subplot in an acceptable way...But I was wrong.It was stupid, just stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 This. I mean, in Season 3 the moment Asha took the men and the ship to go rescue Theon, it was very epic.Even if it wasn't in the books.Her speech and all that, I loved the scenes but I knew that according to the book...Theon wasn't going to be rescued aparrently so I thought that maybe they could "reach" that conclusion and wrap up that subplot in an acceptable way...But I was wrong.It was stupid, just stupid. Right. I don't object to invented plot lines per se. If they felt they needed "Asha" to rescue Theon to keep her in the show, fine. But, for god's sake, do not resolve the plot in such a way as the one group in Westeros most likely to all die in a suicide mission happily, because what is dead may never die and pay the iron price and we do not sow....turn tail and run away, and worst of all, leave Theon alive in a cage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattori Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Without Jeyne Poole, a member of the Stark Household who Theon knew and remembered from his life as a Stark ward/hostage, as Ramsay's abused captive, Theon's arc loses a lot of resonance and richness. They don't have to even make her fake Arya, she could have been captured in Winterfell and brought to the Dreadfort. Ramsay or his underlings could be hurting her in a non-sexual way, constantly threatening her, beating her, etc., the way Sansa was abused in King's Landing; or they could make her Ramsay's fake-Arya bride as in the book. they already took a big dump on Theon...they focus so much on the torture and Ramsay and his wacky hi jinks, and not enough on the fucking Theon. Its pisses me off that all the producers care now is shock value. It always looks like they make all the material for the favorite characters and just take a shit on the ones people dont really care. Maybe they dont care because of that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattori Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Right. I don't object to invented plot lines per se. If they felt they needed "Asha" to rescue Theon to keep her in the show, fine. But, for god's sake, do not resolve the plot in such a way as the one group in Westeros most likely to all die in a suicide mission happily, because what is dead may never die and pay the iron price and we do not sow....turn tail and run away, and worst of all, leave Theon alive in a cage. That scene felt like a comedy sketch. The zoom in on asha's face, and then the cut to them runinng away....you could literally put a laughing track on that part and it wouldnt feel out of place at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattori Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Jon was given wonderful scenes and Harington was really amazing, his best season yet i dont agree with that. The clearly did alot of filler scenes just to shove a Jon moment in between episodes. I hated how they handled the preparation to the battle, he clearly warns them countless times that wildlings are coming, and no one believes, because he is a "traitor". Also...Craster's Keep?yeah...probably the most worthless moment of this season...from the Bolton guy plot, to Bran going from Night fort all the way to craster's keep and getting himself caught in a ridiculous way,to Ghost being captured and the horrible cartoony villain. Harington did the best he could with the shitty material they gave him this season, he is turning into a great actor, and that battle episode did make up for all the shit I had to put up with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Ah, well, I ranted about the destruction of Robb and Cat's story for the entirety of last season, LOL. From the lack of Northern lords in his story, stupid modern Volantis nurse who doesn't know where Winterfell is, Robb as a selfish prick, Greywind death, Jamie's release, everything.... So, my expectations were much lower this season, and now I am amused by the crazy stuff the show does, like Arya and the Hound at the Vale and Brienne, the nicest character in the series, thugging out on the Hound, while "Asha" one of the most badass characters flees in fear of the big dogs and the guy with no shirt. Nitpicking the show is a form of relaxation now, because I much more know what to expe t though sometimes they still exceed even my low expectations for dumb pointlessness and weirdo decision making...like more time on beetles than Charles Dance death scene. They're funny guys. LOL I totally agree, WTF with Robb and Cat and all the 'not really dead' Stark children, still.....by the way. Who the fuck hasn't had an Arya or a Sansa or a Bran sighting? Although, I have to say, Greywind's death scene killed me, and Arya seeing it and the aftermath. That was one of the times that seeing something, or being there, was better than hearing it second hand in the books. But, it's ironic, too, the reason Greywind's death was so moving, at least I kinda knew him, LOL. I hardly knew anyone inside at the wedding, not really, LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 LOL I totally agree, WTF with Robb and Cat and all the 'not really dead' Stark children, still.....by the way. Who the fuck hasn't had an Arya or a Sansa or a Bran sighting? Although, I have to say, Greywind's death scene killed me, and Arya seeing it and the aftermath. That was one of the times that seeing something, or being there, was better than hearing it second hand in the books. But, it's ironic, too, the reason Greywind's death was so moving, at least I kinda knew him, LOL. I hardly knew anyone inside at the wedding, not really, LOL It was sad, but I still HATED it with a passion, because the show reduces the direwolves to big dogs. The fuck. He should have had a heroic death, going down fighting, like a wolf, like a Stark. The fuck I say again. The only reason Lady took it meekly was because it was a Stark doing the deed. And, the fuck again, with Ghost in the pen of wooden stakes. And Summer getting caught too. Fuck. Don't tell me they don't hate the Starks. The wolves will come again. Or, I guess not, and who would care anyway since any fool in Westeros can catch them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hattori Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 They either lied to GRRM in their first meeting. Or they got caught up in the success of the first season and began changing the storylines and characters once they solidified their power in the show's production hierarchy. No one can say no to D&D about the horrible changes. There is no doubt that the direction of the show has heavily changed after the first season. It seems to me that D&D's mostly minor changes in the first season were nothing more than testing the waters. To see how GRRM and the fans would react. Now they know that even major changes will never be challenged by anyone with authority. It is clear that they do not care about adapting the source material. Now they are about changing the source material to create their own version of ASOIAF that is loosely based on the books. It is exactly what GRRM said he'd never cave into nor compromise. He said he'd never let Hollywood make the books into films because they'd want to cut too much of his material and gut the books into something too narrow. This show is not an adaptation but more of a reboot. Just like how Hollywood reboots their comic book franchises. In their first meeting GRRM and D&D talked about who Jon's mother was. Yet almost all of the major clues about that question never made it into the show. They suckered GRRM into thinking that they cared about the show by pretending to have deep knowledge base about his lore. GRRM was probably happy to finally be able to talk about who Jon's mother was with someone who could actually get his books into a live action adaptation and was overwhelmed. The big book knowledge discussion that they had about Jon's mother has never materialized on the show. I wonder if GRRM ever thinks about when he asked them who they thought Jon's mother was and how they just threw that storyline away. The Tower of Joy was left out. Dany's vision of a blue rose in the House of the Undying. Edric Dayne and Jon Snow being connected. The Knight of the Laughing Tree Story. Do non-book readers even know that Jon's parentage is an enormous storyline in the books? Did Robb ever send his last requests to the North on the show naming Jon as an heir to Winterfell? Howland Reed? Promise me Ned? I think it is fitting that D&D gained GRRM's trust by discussing Jon's parentage only to almost entirely abandon the storyline. Hopefully GRRM is sitting on a ridiculous pile of cash from HBO. Because I doubt that he's particularly impressed with how the show has turned out. This season being particularly appalling to the point where GRRM is doing damage control on his blog. you are so right, my friend...I keep going back to the first season and being amazed by how consistent in quality it is and how faithful it is. Its kinda hard to do foreshadowing, since you cant read people's mind in the show, but i agree that they foreshadow nothing at all. I only remember Bran dreaming about the sea coming to winterfell thats it!! The most fun I had with the books was interpreting the prophecies and dreams. Also, George Martin has stated inumerous times by now indirectly in interviews that he doesnt like the direction the show is going. George likes being subtle on the books, but in the show its all shock value( Jojen Reed's death is proof of that) I agree with you that George might have been too starstrucked by the knowledge the producers had, but by the looks of this season, the producers dont seem to like the books for the reasons George does. I will not be watching season 5 until the book comes out. Id rather wait 5 years than to watch a botched story that I love so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 It was sad, but I still HATED it with a passion, because the show reduces the direwolves to big dogs. The fuck. He should have had a heroic death, going down fighting, like a wolf, like a Stark. The fuck I say again. The only reason Lady took it meekly was because it was a Stark doing the deed. And, the fuck again, with Ghost in the pen of wooden stakes. And Summer getting caught too. Fuck. Don't tell me they don't hate the Starks. The wolves will come again. Or, I guess not, and who would care anyway since any fool in Westeros can catch them. I'm just an animal wus, anyway. I do agree with what you're saying, the direwolves aren't the same on the show. I'm just grateful it took a ton of men to take him down, at least that was accurate. I did miss the Westerling kid, though, defending Greywind. I suppose I have just given up on seeing the real direwolves, anyway. I've been wanting to see Nymeria and her mighty pack, to me that has always equated with all the friends Arya herself makes in her travels, and perhaps, the chance at Arya assembling her own pack before GRRM is done. As far as D&D, I don't care much what they put on the screen in the future, as I think we will need to beware of trolling and just their own creations as we go forward without the books in print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I'm just an animal wus, anyway. I do agree with what you're saying, the direwolves aren't the same on the show. I'm just grateful it took a ton of men to take him down, at least that was accurate. I did miss the Westerling kid, though, defending Greywind. I suppose I have just given up on seeing the real direwolves, anyway. I've been wanting to see Nymeria and her mighty pack, to me that has always equated with all the friends Arya herself makes in her travels, and perhaps, the chance at Arya assembling her own pack before GRRM is done. As far as D&D, I don't care much what they put on the screen in the future, as I think we will need to beware of trolling and just their own creations as we go forward without the books in print. You're going to rile me up all over again over the Robb Cat story, LOL. My biggest fear is that the lack of Stark stuff means GRRM is not going to give them any payback, I find that almost impossible to accept or believe, since he was supposedly going to title one of the books A Time for Wolves but thought it gave too much away....but, the show's neglect of idea of a Stark resurgence is kind of perplexing. I totally am expecting to laugh my ass off next season with Jamie in Dorne, Bronn visiting the Dorne brothel, all the sand snakes being sex crazed freaks, and surely we'll get some Essos brothels as well on Tyrion's journey. Plus, Black Sansa vamping it up. I may need to invent some kind of D&D off the rails drinking game for nitpicking next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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