The Wolves Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Bran may never forgive Jaime, but he may understand his actions. Even Ned does. I doubt a 9/10yr old will ever understand how someone tried to kill him and in the process took away his ability to walk or pursue his dream of becoming a knight. Bran could also never know the urge or understand the need to protect his children because Jaime probably took away that ability to have children from him also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Ned wasn't there, and Cersei is the one that tells him they did it for their children. We were there during Bran's chapter and there's no real indication to think that they did it for their children. Furthermore, Ned doesn't "understand" it; he only knew it would be a hard decision if he was in that situation. But he's someone who cares about his children, so that would only apply to him. btw, Cameron, I at least agree with the Brienne part. She's his only redeeming quality, and even then it took a lot of sexism and rape jokes to get through before he appreciated her. chrisdaw, I see. I don't agree, but I see the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Ned wasn't there, and Cersei is the one that tells him they did it for their children. We were there during Bran's chapter and there's no real indication to think that they did it for their children. Furthermore, Ned doesn't "understand" it; he only knew it would be a hard decision if he was in that situation. But he's someone who cares about his children, so that would only apply to him. btw, Cameron, I at least agree with the Brienne part. She's his only redeeming quality, and even then it took a lot of sexism and rape jokes to get through before he appreciated her. Whether or not Jaime loves his kids, he did love Cersei at that point. Is it OK if Jaime pushes Bran thinking of his kids, but not OK if he does it thinking of Cersei? What difference does it make? The point is, he did it to save someone he loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Ned wasn't there, and Cersei is the one that tells him they did it for their children. We were there during Bran's chapter and there's no real indication to think that they did it for their children. Furthermore, Ned doesn't "understand" it; he only knew it would be a hard decision if he was in that situation. But he's someone who cares about his children, so that would only apply to him. btw, Cameron, I at least agree with the Brienne part. She's his only redeeming quality, and even then it took a lot of sexism and rape jokes to get through before he appreciated her. taking it (possibly too much) further, brienne sort of represents honour and general "goodness" (trustworthy, less than attractive) vs circe (lies, deceit, murder, incest, very attractive) and therefore his following brienne's call for help vs burning cercei's letter implies a choosing of "good" over "evil". i suppose further analysis would point out that brienne is apparently trying to trick or kill him, pointing towards a reversal of roles for jaime, or that he dies a hero. or i could be over analyzing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 ^ Honestly, you're right. there is no difference because whether it for love of his sister or love of his children, it was still committing a crime to cover up another crime. Love doesn't make it any better. they should not have been having sex in the first place, at least not if Cersei wanted to be Queen and Jaime in the king's guard. at least one of those positions was voluntary, as was their sexual relationship. So I still am not giving Jaime a free pass to murder who he wants because he's so in luuurrvv with his sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 btw, Cameron, I at least agree with the Brienne part. She's his only redeeming quality, and even then it took a lot of sexism and rape jokes to get through before he appreciated her. He has several other redeeming qualities, as I listed in the post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Jaime is a dumb and arrogant scumbag at heart, it has nothing to do with Cersei. His fanboys blaming her and excusing his vile actions is downright hilarious. 1. Because he knew that of the child lived three more children would die, alongside his love and leading to a war which would have caused thousands furthermore to die in the Westerlands when Robert invaded.LOL. You make it sound as if Jaime gave a damn about his kids and thousands dying which is clearly wrong. Whether or not Jaime loves his kids, he did love Cersei at that point. Is it OK if Jaime pushes Bran thinking of his kids, but not OK if he does it thinking of Cersei? What difference does it make? The point is, he did it to save someone he loved.Sure he did, that someone was called Jaime though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 ^ Honestly, you're right. there is no difference because whether it for love of his sister or love of his children, it was still committing a crime to cover up another crime. Love doesn't make it any better. they should not have been having sex in the first place, at least not if Cersei wanted to be Queen and Jaime in the king's guard. at least one of those positions was voluntary, as was their sexual relationship. So I still am not giving Jaime a free pass to murder who he wants because he's so in luuurrvv with his sister. Exactly, it was a crime to be fucking Cersei and siring bastards in the first place. I attribute this to his blind love for Cersei - which I say leads to all his evil acts, and which no longer exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Supporting his bastard on a throne he has no right to should count. Exactly: Lannister has not one shred of human decency, he is just a selfish person. Truly everything he does is for the betterment of him and then he side steps and thinks in the back of his mind how great he is. I just get tired of his whole pov. I want somebody to put him into the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Whether or not Jaime loves his kids, he did love Cersei at that point. Is it OK if Jaime pushes Bran thinking of his kids, but not OK if he does it thinking of Cersei? What difference does it make? The point is, he did it to save someone he loved.Cersei is an open monster and guilty of treason, thus deserves to be punished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Exactly, it was a crime to be fucking Cersei and siring bastards in the first place. I attribute this to his blind love for Cersei - which I say leads to all his evil acts, and which no longer exists.Jaime's worst act is murdering Ned's men to "teach him a lesson" and that had nothing to do with Cersei. He is simply a terrible person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Cersei is an open monster and guilty of treason, thus deserves to be punished Yes she does. Unfortunately, Jaime loves her. This doesn't excuse Jaime from his crime, but at least it makes us understand why he did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Jaime's worst act is murdering Ned's men to "teach him a lesson" and that had nothing to do with Cersei. He is simply a terrible person. If that is Jaime's worst act, then he is a normal lord as far as Westeros is concerned. When the high lords play the game of thrones, it is always the innocents who suffer the most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Sure he did, that someone was called Jaime though. I think he truly did love Cersei. Why else would he remain faithful to her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Yes she does. Unfortunately, Jaime loves her. This doesn't excuse Jaime from his crime, but at least it makes us understand why he did it.Jaime's love is fickle. I don't know anybody who would love somebody so much that they are a murdering uncaring bitch. He would have maimed/killed a little girl for Cersei, murdered the King on the word "go" and gave no fecks about the millions who suffered from his actions/decisions. I don't get Jaime and Cersei's love when about 2yrs they are both turning on each other, their love was a narcissistic unhealthy infatuation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I wouldn't call it a start but the next stage, I think that the major game changer was when he returned for Brienne. He never really cared for anyone except Cersei before that, but still, change=/=redemption. He has a lot to do, a loooong way to go. I agree. Up until that point, it just seemed to me as though he just liked the idea of redemption. Until he saw Cersei for what she was and consciously made the decision to stop doing her bidding, he was never going to truly be on the road to redemption.Agree with Reek Havoc that Cersei is the starting point for Jaime. With Brienne, I think, he's simply showing empathy, and even the biggest assholes are able to do that. But I don't think that up to that point, he was actually considering to change into a better person, only to do the right thing about a person who helped him. Getting away from Cersei is his real redemption because she's the start of all of his problems: accepting Cersei's offer to join the KG and being together was his biggest mistake and pretty much everything he has done so far has been caused by taking that bad decision. Cersei has never been a good person, not even as a child, while Jaime did have potential to be a great man and Lord. Cersei deprived him from a family of his own, his inheritance and his rights as Tywin's older son and he accepted because he was a very stupid kid who let himself being manipulated with sex and what he thought it was love. He has now realised Cersei isn't worthy, and she's nothing the woman he thought she was. He doesn't feel he needs to protect her any more, and that includes their secrets. In your opinion, what does he need to do for it to be complete? ^ That I can agree with. (JCRB) If Jaime truly wants to redeem himself he needs to get Tommen off of that throne he has no right to while not causing any harm to him. Jaime's already screwed up half the continent by putting his bastards on that throne. If he truly wants to become good and reject his father's "feast for crows" he has to accept that he has a large part in prepping that feast and take away the cause.That's a good start: his children. I think it's going to be impossible for him to save them both (if we consider Maggy's prophecies), but trying is at least a good path. Look that by getting closer to them, he's also taking Cersei's power away from her, as I mentioned above. He doesn't feel like he needs to protect her or their secrets any longer. And, by recognising those kids as his own, he's accepting his guilt and responsibilities. One thing I like about Jaime is that he's not like Tywin at the time of taking blame. Tywin always tries to rationalize excuses and explanations for his actions so he could have his hands as cleans as possible: Jaime does accept his blame and doesn't mind to get his White Cloak stained, either with noble acts (Aerys) or terrible ones (Bran). Accepting and acknowledging the incest would actually save Tommen: people want him dead because he's a Baratheon and a Lannister, rather than because he's in power. By claiming him his son he could put him in a safer position, maybe going to the Wall with him, and making Myrcella a septa, who knows. And also, he's taking all the power away from the Lannisters, specially Cersei, who doesn't deserve it and she's making more chaos than any war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Jaime's love is fickle. I don't know anybody who would love somebody so much that they are a murdering uncaring bitch. He would have maimed/killed a little girl for Cersei, murdered the King on the word "go" and gave no fecks about the millions who suffered from his actions/decisions.I don't get Jaime and Cersei's love when about 2yrs they are both turning on each other, their love was a narcissistic unhealthy infatuation. It took aroubd 20 years for Jaime to stop loving Cersei, and he has remained faithful to her all his life. Jaime's love was stupid and unhealthy, but not fickle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Jaime's love was stupid and unhealthy, but not fickle Corrected for redundancy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourmyleOfCeres Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Jaime Lannister is a moral monster and, as pointed out at length in a thread a couple weeks ago, meets all the (very specific) criteria for psychopathy. People buying his 'redemption arc' are victims of an unreliable narrator (Jaime, not Martin) and/or a mostly revisionist TV show. Incest, cuckolding the king, knowingly supporting bastards stealing the throne, murdering Jory Cassel and others in cold blood in reprisal for Tyrion's capture, breaking his kingsguard vows not only by killing a king but also by sleeping with a woman oh and btw the woman was the king's wife, crippling Bran who he had meant to murder, his involvement in the Tysha affair against his own brother which he then kept silent on for over a decade even tho he knew it had destroyed his brother's life... A bad guy, Jaime Lannister. And as for his 'redemption', he does the vast majority of these things as a grown-ass man in his 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Jaime Lannister is a moral monster and, as pointed out at length in a thread a couple weeks ago, meets all the (very specific) criteria for psychopathy. People buying his 'redemption arc' are victims of an unreliable narrator (Jaime, not Martin) and/or a mostly revisionist TV show. Incest, cuckolding the king, knowingly supporting bastards stealing the throne, murdering Jory Cassel and others in cold blood in reprisal for Tyrion's capture, breaking his kingsguard vows not only by killing a king but also by sleeping with a woman oh and btw the woman was the king's wife, crippling Bran who he had meant to murder, his involvement in the Tysha affair against his own brother which he then kept silent on for over a decade even tho he knew it had destroyed his brother's life... A bad guy, Jaime Lannister. And as for his 'redemption', he does the vast majority of these things as a grown-ass man in his 30s. I am not saying he's done no evil acts, but he's done honorable things too. He's no monster. As I listed earlier, he 1. Saved King's landing 2. Saved Brienne 3. Tried to Keep his word to Cat to return her daughters 4. Scolds the Kingsguard for beating Sansa - meaning he would have likely stopped it had he been there 5. Was the only member of Aerys' Kingsguard to see the hypocrisy of the vows Why would he do any of the things above if he is a monster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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