Jaime Lannister's honor

[The Maiden Fair]

Considering the interactions between Theon and the Weirwood, I don't think it's completely outside the realm of possibility that Bran could forgive Jaime. Theon truly regretted what he did, and Bran recognized that. It's been demonstrated that he has the capacity to understand and sympathize with people's motivations, at least. Whether he would deem Jaime's less worthy is the big question. Whether Jaime actually regrets tossing Bran is another.

He's also finding something to live for outside of Cersei's legs, which is a big charcter move for him. This sometimes gets buried under all his other actions, but it is critical to his development. If Cersei's rabid sexuality is what got him there, so be it. At least he's finally paying attention to how his actions ripple outward now, a bit.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

As for "Ned understands Jaime's actions", Ned is an ethical saint, by Westerosi standards, a man as afflicted by conscience as Marcus Aurelius was. His thoughts tend to extreme, often irrational levels of justice and compassion in certain cases.

What he neglects to think in that passage, but what is undeniably true, is that Ned would never have been in Jaime or Cersei's position in the first place, because he would never have done the 90 evil things necessary to get there. He, being the guy he is, just immediately puts it in a way he can relate to and which elicits his compassion and empathy. He was not being truly rational in that oft-cited passage (oft-cited, perversely, as justification for Jaime, treated as if Bran's own father is condoning the action).

[Brute of Bracken]

What he neglects to think in that passage, but what is undeniably true, is that Ned would never have been in Jaime or Cersei's position in the first place, because he would never have done the 90 evil things necessary to get there.

Absolutely true. I argue the exact same thing in another thread.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

I am not saying he's done no evil acts, but he's done honorable things too. He's no monster.

There is a Stannis quote that answers you about as well as it's possible to do. I imagine you know the one I mean.

[Brute of Bracken]

There is a Stannis quote that answers you about as well as it's possible to do. I imagine you know the one I mean.

Indeed, but I don't recall Stannis talks about monsters in that quote. In any case, our disagreement may boil down to semantics - I just define a monster as having very few or no redeeming qualities. Almost pure evil. Which I argue Jaime isn't

[Cameron]

Jaime Lannister is a moral monster and, as pointed out at length in a thread a couple weeks ago, meets all the (very specific) criteria for psychopathy. People buying his 'redemption arc' are victims of an unreliable narrator (Jaime, not Martin) and/or a mostly revisionist TV show.

Incest, cuckolding the king, knowingly supporting bastards stealing the throne, murdering Jory Cassel and others in cold blood in reprisal for Tyrion's capture, breaking his kingsguard vows not only by killing a king but also by sleeping with a woman oh and btw the woman was the king's wife, crippling Bran who he had meant to murder, his involvement in the Tysha affair against his own brother which he then kept silent on for over a decade even tho he knew it had destroyed his brother's life...

A bad guy, Jaime Lannister. And as for his 'redemption', he does the vast majority of these things as a grown-ass man in his 30s.

ok, so, cockolding the king isnt that big a deal in societies where arranged marriages are common. its expected for people to have lovers outside marriage. murdering jorry cassel. well, frankly, killing someone over a brother is one of the most defendable crimes out there. consensual sex being a crime or a si is bullshit. lying about tysha he was what, sixteen? and pressured by the most powerful man in westeros? sure, weakness of character, but don't tell me if someone with serious political power and blood ties told you to lie, you wouldnt feel any pressure. i can't say anything about incest, i only have a brother, but i don't see that as being such a terrible crime

[chrisdaw]

Considering the interactions between Theon and the Weirwood, I don't think it's completely outside the realm of possibility that Bran could forgive Jaime. Theon truly regretted what he did, and Bran recognized that. It's been demonstrated that he has the capacity to understand and sympathize with people's motivations, at least. Whether he would deem Jaime's less worthy is the big question. Whether Jaime actually regrets tossing Bran is another.

He's also finding something to live for outside of Cersei's legs, which is a big charcter move for him. This sometimes gets buried under all his other actions, but it is critical to his development. If Cersei's rabid sexuality is what got him there, so be it. At least he's finally paying attention to how his actions ripple outward now, a bit.

Bran is the most benevolent character in the series with the greatest capacity for forgiveness, that is of course by design, as he will have to make the hardest sacrifices.

[Brute of Bracken]

ok, so, cockolding the king isnt that big a deal in societies where arranged marriages are common. its expected for people to have lovers outside marriage. murdering jorry cassel. well, frankly, killing someone over a brother is one of the most defendable crimes out there. consensual sex being a crime or a si is bullshit. lying about tysha he was what, sixteen? and pressured by the most powerful man in westeros? sure, weakness of character, but don't tell me if someone with serious political power and blood ties told you to lie, you wouldnt feel any pressure. i can't say anything about incest, i only have a brother, but i don't see that as being such a terrible crime

Pretty much. Take Cersei out of the picture and you have a pretty decent guy. It was mainly because of his blind love for her that he put his bastards on the throne, pushed Bran, etc. Of course, this is entirely Jaime's fault, not anybody else's. I just argue that now that he has lost his love for Cersei, we are going to see a very different Jaime - his true "honorable" self

[FourmyleOfCeres]

...

[IRON BANK]

Jaime Lannister is a moral monster and, as pointed out at length in a thread a couple weeks ago, meets all the (very specific) criteria for psychopathy. People buying his 'redemption arc' are victims of an unreliable narrator (Jaime, not Martin) and/or a mostly revisionist TV show.

Incest, cuckolding the king, knowingly supporting bastards stealing the throne, murdering Jory Cassel and others in cold blood in reprisal for Tyrion's capture, breaking his kingsguard vows not only by killing a king but also by sleeping with a woman oh and btw the woman was the king's wife, crippling Bran who he had meant to murder, his involvement in the Tysha affair against his own brother which he then kept silent on for over a decade even tho he knew it had destroyed his brother's life...

A bad guy, Jaime Lannister. And as for his 'redemption', he does the vast majority of these things as a grown-ass man in his 30s.

Jaimes pov's are hilarious. I tried to do the right thing and now I will be different. He takes hardly any responsibilty. It resembles so much of today. The rich spoiled boy who has everything handed to him and never has to pay a price for his crimes. now since he has become even more powerful than before he's gonna change for the better. Yeah right.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

Pretty much. Take Cersei out of the picture and you have a pretty decent guy. It was mainly because of his blind love for her that he put his bastards on the throne, pushed Bran, etc. Of course, this is entirely Jaime's fault, not anybody else's. I just argue that now that he has lost his love for Cersei, we are going to see a very different Jaime - his true "honorable" self

Nonsense. What did Tysha or Jory Cassel have to do with Cersei? What all these things really have in common is a guy who just doesn't care, who lacks empathy, is reckless, and has little concern for the consequences of his actions, especially when they're consequences that affect others. Jaime's a textbook psycho. Robb's army basically explicitly factors in his being a psycho when forming their plans against him - and they work, because he is.

[HairGrowsBack]

It's a funny how always, in a work praised for its grey characters, we fall into debates where a character is either a monster or a saint.

Jaime is grey : he's callous and has done his share of bad acts (pushing Bran out of the window, his Relationship with Cersei and its consequences). Yet he was the only one willing to stop Aerys' atrocities : he wanted to stop him from raping his wife, while the rest of the KG stood by idly. He helped Pia, saved Brienne, and did so selflessly.

I do think Jaime isn't a bad man deep down : he's never shown any sign of cruelty. He can be a jerk, and is capable of terrible things, but he doesn't do them out of the blue, or because he enjoys it. It doesn't justify his actions, but it does prevent him from being the monster some call him

[Brute of Bracken]

Nonsense. What did Tysha or Jory Cassel have to do with Cersei? What all these things really have in common is a guy who just doesn't care, who lacks empathy, is reckless, and has little concern for the consequences of his actions, especially when they're consequences that affect others. Jaime's a textbook psycho. Robb's army basically explicitly factors in his being a psycho when forming their plans against him - and they work, because he is.

With Tysha, he is just a boy. He did a mistake, but how many boys would have stood up to Tywin? In any case, I do agree that is a crime.

Killing Jory Cassel is pretty much normal in Westeros. The Starks kidnapped a Lannister lordling - most lords would react pretty voilently in that situation.

Again, if he is a psycho, why do you think he did all the honorable things he did? I think the Stannis quote you mentioned goes both ways.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is a Stannis quote that answers you about as well as it's possible to do. I imagine you know the one I mean.

I think no one here says that everybody will simply forgive and forget Jaime's crimes either. We know he has done very terrible things and he's definitely going to pay for those crimes, which I think it's ok. Yet, the point of redemption is showing remorse of what it has been done. Otherwise, he would face death saying something like "fuck you, I know I did nothing wrong". If he dies saying "yes, I've sinned, I deserved this", then the redemption is complete, in a way. At the end of the books, or his life, whatever happens first, when Jaime has already played his role we can finally decide if he has really changed or not. As his path is half way, it's still hard to tell.

I am not saying he's done no evil acts, but he's done honorable things too. He's no monster. As I listed earlier, he

1. Saved King's landing

2. Saved Brienne

3. Tried to Keep his word to Cat to return her daughters

4. Scolds the Kingsguard for beating Sansa - meaning he would have likely stopped it had he been there

5. Was the only member of Aerys' Kingsguard to see the hypocrisy of the vows

Why would he do any of the things above if he is a monster?

I think that what happened to Jaime is that he stopped caring about everything.

First, he realised he wasn't named KG due to his actions but as a way to snub Tywin. Then, he sees how the "honourable" White Cloaks simply stood and witness Aerys' madness without doing something, and after he killed the King that was about to kill them all, he was scolded for that.

After the Rebellion, Jaime was practically a zombie. People he admired to be good and honourable died, everything around him changed, he was seen as a murdered and an oathbreaker, and Cersei got married. Things definitely didn't changed for his status as KG as the new King wasn't exactly better than Aerys to his eyes because now it was his time to stand aside when Cersei was being forced to have sex with him and after she gave birth to his children, he couldn't even be close to them.

I'm not saying that Jaime was a victim or anything like it. But I guess after Aerys' death he got little to live of fight for except Cersei. And Cersei is even way more morally rotten than he is.

[Brute of Bracken]

It's a funny how always, in a work praised for its grey characters, we fall into debates where a character is either a monster or a saint.

Jaime is grey : he's callous and has done his share of bad acts (pushing Bran out of the window, his Relationship with Cersei and its consequences). Yet he was the only one willing to stop Aerys' atrocities : he wanted to stop him from raping his wife, while the rest of the KG stood by idly. He helped Pia, saved Brienne, and did so selflessly.

I do think Jaime isn't a bad man deep down : he's never shown any sign of cruelty. He can be a jerk, and is capable of terrible things, but he doesn't do them out of the blue, or because he enjoys it. It doesn't justify his actions, but it does prevent him from being the monster some call him

I agree with this.

[Cameron]

It's a funny how always, in a work praised for its grey characters, we fall into debates where a character is either a monster or a saint.

Jaime is grey : he's callous and has done his share of bad acts (pushing Bran out of the window, his Relationship with Cersei and its consequences). Yet he was the only one willing to stop Aerys' atrocities : he wanted to stop him from raping his wife, while the rest of the KG stood by idly. He helped Pia, saved Brienne, and did so selflessly.

I do think Jaime isn't a bad man deep down : he's never shown any sign of cruelty. He can be a jerk, and is capable of terrible things, but he doesn't do them out of the blue, or because he enjoys it. It doesn't justify his actions, but it does prevent him from being the monster some call him

i agree up until you say he is at heart, a bad man. i think the point of his greyness is that he is a man. he has done attrocities, he has done kindnesses, he has done attrocities which turned out to be kindnesses and kindnesses that seem to be attrocities. good and bad aren't applicable, he is simply a man trying to good as it appears at the time

[LordStoneheart]

ok, so, cockolding the king isnt that big a deal in societies where arranged marriages are common. its expected for people to have lovers outside marriage. murdering jorry cassel. well, frankly, killing someone over a brother is one of the most defendable crimes out there. consensual sex being a crime or a si is bullshit. lying about tysha he was what, sixteen? and pressured by the most powerful man in westeros? sure, weakness of character, but don't tell me if someone with serious political power and blood ties told you to lie, you wouldnt feel any pressure. i can't say anything about incest, i only have a brother, but i don't see that as being such a terrible crime

Really not sure if serious, but will respond anyway.

1. No, cuckolding the king isn't something light. It's unfair, yes, but Robert having bastards is not a big deal; Cersei having them is. That's how this society works (going off your "society" argument.) Robert was hardly going to disinherit any children Cersei had. On his deathbed he still thought of Joff as his heir even though he hated him. Cersei committed treason by denying the king an heir.

2. Jory was not to blame for Tyrion getting arrested. you know who is? Jaime. follow the trail back. Jaime pushes Bran, Bran goes in coma, someone tries to assassinate him, Catelyn figures out Jaime pushed him, Catelyn goes south and investigates the things that happened to Bran. Had Jaime not pushed Bran, Tyrion wouldn't have been taken by Catelyn. Even so, the northmen of Eddard's had done nothing to deserve their death because Jaime was upset. Blatant disregard for life.

3. Don't really care about the Tysha thing. I agree that's on Tywin's shoulders, not the teenage Jaime. Still though, awfully long time for Jaime to tell the truth.

4. incest isn't the problem. I actually think some Jaime and Cersei moments are rather sweet for the fraction of second I forget they're related. But as with point 1, it's Cersei and Jaime denying Robert an heir. It's not about persecuting incest, though I would hardly say I support it. there's a reason its so taboo in most societies. I don't care if Jaime and Cersei were consensual. They purposely disrespected their king, denied him heirs, and caused the current succession crisis. it would be the same if Jaime wasn't her brother.

[Brute of Bracken]

I think no one here says that everybody will simply forgive and forget Jaime's crimes either. We know he has done very terrible things and he's definitely going to pay for those crimes, which I think it's ok. Yet, the point of redemption is showing remorse of what it has been done. Otherwise, he would face death saying something like "fuck you, I know I did nothing wrong". If he dies saying "yes, I've sinned, I deserved this", then the redemption is complete, in a way. At the end of the books, or his life, whatever happens first, when Jaime has already played his role we can finally decide if he has really changed or not. As his path is half way, it's still hard to tell.

I think that what happened to Jaime is that he stopped caring about everything.

First, he realised he wasn't named KG due to his actions but as a way to snub Tywin. Then, he sees how the "honourable" White Cloaks simply stood and witness Aerys' madness without doing something, and after he killed the King that was about to kill them all, he was scolded for that.

After the Rebellion, Jaime was practically a zombie. People he admired to be good and honourable died, everything around him changed, he was seen as a murdered and an oathbreaker, and Cersei got married. Things definitely didn't changed for his status as KG as the new King wasn't exactly better than Aerys to his eyes because now it was his time to stand aside when Cersei was being forced to have sex with him and after she gave birth to his children, he couldn't even be close to them.

I'm not saying that Jaime was a victim or anything like it. But I guess after Aerys' death he got little to live of fight for except Cersei. And Cersei is even way more morally rotten than he is.

Pretty much, though I disagree with him necessarily dying to get redemption. If he just realizes how evil he's been so far and regrets it, that's redemption in my opinion

[Minsc]

With Tysha, he is just a boy. He did a mistake, but how many boys would have stood up to Tywin? In any case, I do agree that is a crime.

Killing Jory Cassel is pretty much normal in Westeros. The Starks kidnapped a Lannister lordling - most lords would react pretty voilently in that situation.

Again, if he is a psycho, why do you think he did all the honorable things he did? I think the Stannis quote you mentioned goes both ways.

He was at least 18 during the Tysha affair, and had already stood up to Tywin when joined the kg

Please, his brother was only arrested and he is partially guilty for why that occurred

What honorable things?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nonsense. What did Tysha or Jory Cassel have to do with Cersei? What all these things really have in common is a guy who just doesn't care, who lacks empathy, is reckless, and has little concern for the consequences of his actions, especially when they're consequences that affect others. Jaime's a textbook psycho. Robb's army basically explicitly factors in his being a psycho when forming their plans against him - and they work, because he is.

"Psychosis (from the Greek ψυχή psyche, "mind/soul", and -ωσις -osis, "abnormal condition or derangement") refers to an abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality"."

Jaime looks pretty normal to me and quite aware of the things he does.