Jaime Lannister's honor

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That is not what psychopathy is or means. Google better.

Ok.

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.

First, using modern diagnosis to explain Westerosi characters is a flawed analysis. Just to start, we have people who is told they're better than the smallfolk and they are disposable. If we use their lack of empathy towards those who they consider barely human, we have then a lot of sociopaths. Also, one single symptom doesn't completely qualifies for a diagnosis.

Anyway.... Jaime doesn't present antisocial behaviour, and he does have empathy and remorse for his actions. About bold behaviour, he's a knight, knights in ASOIAF are meant to be bold and look for glory even if that coast their own heads. Also, he's a Lannister. He's been taught he shouldn't care for the opinion of sheep because he's a lion.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

I do accept he did a mistake in Tysha's case.

And he's supposed to do nothing? Confess? What was the point of pushing Bran in the first place? Of course the Lannisters are going to react violently! I really don't nderstand why killing Jory is such a big deal in Westeros when innocents get killed by lords all the time.

I'm not sure if you read the points I listed. If so, an explanation on why you disagree would be useful.

I do accept he did a mistake in Tysha's case.

And he's supposed to do nothing? Confess? What was the point of pushing Bran in the first place? Of course the Lannisters are going to react violently! I really don't nderstand why killing Jory is such a big deal in Westeros when innocents get killed by lords all the time.

I'm not sure if you read the points I listed. If so, an explanation on why you disagree would be useful.

It was a peacetime murder of members of a Lord's personal staff. It's kind of a huge deal. Most of the series takes place in war where almost anything goes, but there was no war on at the time of Jory's murder. Ned, who is presumably very familiar with what's normal or not in Westeros, thinks it's a huge deal.

[LordParas]

He is a fair man and has good personality, but dishonorable. Contrast with Stannis, honorable man but bad personality.

[Minsc]

And he's supposed to do nothing? Confess? What was the point of pushing Bran in the first place? Of course the Lannisters are going to react violently! I really don't nderstand why killing Jory is such a big deal in Westeros when innocents get killed by lords all the time.

I'm not sure if you read the points I listed. If so, an explanation on why you disagree would be useful.

Yes, yes. Because killing innocents is wrong

Killing Aerys: everyone wound have done the same

Recognizing hypocrisy: Hardly, he did no more then the rest of Aerys's KG

Criticizing beatings: big woop

Following his oath to Catelyn: he hasn't and sending some else to do your job isn't an accomplishment

[LordStoneheart]

And he's supposed to do nothing? Confess? What was the point of pushing Bran in the first place? Of course the Lannisters are going to react violently! I really don't nderstand why killing Jory is such a big deal in Westeros when innocents get killed by lords all the time.

1. Exactly.

2. It's a big deal because this an untrue generalization. First off, the bad acts of others don't excuse other bad acts. I can't go steal money and say its not a big deal because other people do it all the time. second, Jaime killing Jory shows a very blatant disregard for life that shows how monstrous Jaime truly is. He doesn't regard jory's life at all. he see's the lesson he can teach eddard.

The arrest is not lawful - as far as I know, Ned did not give the command, nor was Tyrion the actual guilty party.

And killing Jory Cassel is about as par for the course as Daeron being sent to the Wall.

Read the catnapping thread. the act was in a legal grey area, per GRRM, but he never says its illegal. and you're right. the guilty party was Jaime, which makes Jaime an entitled, arrogant, hypocrite. I don't see how your comparison to Daeron is relevant at all, so I'm going to ignore it.

Here's that thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92245-catnapping-a-psa/

@Cameron, your comparison is wrong because Tywin and Jaime did not take issue with legality nor guilt, they were made because they're arrogant twats who think they're above the law.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

I think this is a common misconception. Normal people can indeed do horrible things in certain circumstances. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment?

I have heard of it, since I too went to high school and took intro to psychology. That's a non sequitur; it has literally nothing to do with what we were discussing, which was criminals. Your example involves behavior by authority figures.

[Minsc]

The arrest is not lawful - as far as I know, Ned did not give the command, nor was Tyrion the actual guilty party.

You know the police arrest people that turn up to be innocent all the time thus that isn't unlawful

[Brute of Bracken]

Yes, yes. Because killing innocents is wrong

This goes back to the pushing Bran argument. Yes, it is wrong, but it is understandable as most people would do the same to save their families.

Yes, yes. Because killing innocents is wrong

Killing Aerys: everyone wound have done the same

Oh you think the honorable members of Aerys' kingsguard would have done that?

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Recognizing hypocrisy: Hardly, he did no more then the rest of Aerys's KG

Are we reading the same books? He is so conflicted about Aerys torturing Rhaella - something which no other KG member seemed to do.

Following his oath to Catelyn: he hasn't and sending some else to do your job isn't an accomplishment

He's doing what he can to keep his oath. He could have easily decided not to. Why didnn't he?

[Cameron]

What about the attempted murder of a child? Also, is it difficult to read the ASOIAF books while constantly being angry about the radically different cultural and ethical norms prevailing in the series? IE, is it difficult to read the series and enjoy it when you don't understand it? (Asking for a friend.)

well, as to the friend, i believe its argued by martin that the actions of the ASOIAF universe are meant to be judged by modern standards, according to martin, and as an anthropology major i try to sympathize with the norm of the time, but i find condemning sexual preferences to be a less forgivable norm of cultures. as to the attempted murder of a child, i suppose i argue after taking dozens, if not hundreds of lives in battle that one child doesn't seem that big a deal to the person taking the life, if we judged crimes equally we would be spitting on vetrans of the wars of iraq and afghanistan for some of the things they have done

[The Maiden Fair]

No, they're filled with horrible people. Modern PC liberal stuff here, to defend criminals, but I notice none of you ever invite them over to dinner. None of you ever want to live in a neighborhood filled with ex-cons. Why not?

Uhm, if they're family, I would invite them to dinner, and have. This is so off topic it's in orbit. And Jaime is taking baby steps to own his crimes, and accept punishment for them. Tysha's story was bound to isolate him from a person he obviously cared a great deal about, but he owned that lie anyway. If he showed up at Cersei's trial and admitted his crimes, would that derail your vitriol at all? What would he have to do to be even slightly redeemed in your eyes... is it even possible?

This is a fantasy realm. It isn't meant to truly be compared to real life. I mean, there are at least 3 kinds of reanimated dead in this series. Do you also hate that the white walkers exist because science says they can't exist in the real world?

[Brute of Bracken]

I have heard of it, since I too went to high school and took intro to psychology. That's a non sequitur; it has literally nothing to do with what we were discussing, which was criminals. Your example involves behavior by authority figures.

You must have heard of the Nuremberg trials too. Those people went to prison for following authority.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

Ok.

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy /ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.

First, using modern diagnosis to explain Westerosi characters is a flawed analysis. Just to start, we have people who is told they're better than the smallfolk and they are disposable. If we use their lack of empathy towards those who they consider barely human, we have then a lot of sociopaths. Also, one single symptom doesn't completely qualifies for a diagnosis.

Anyway.... Jaime doesn't present antisocial behaviour, and he does have empathy and remorse for his actions. About bold behaviour, he's a knight, knights in ASOIAF are meant to be bold and look for glory even if that coast their own heads. Also, he's a Lannister. He's been taught he shouldn't care for the opinion of sheep because he's a lion.

Jaime doesn't present anti-social behavior? Maybe you should have actually looked anti-social up rather than just guessed what it meant.

"Anti-social behaviour is behaviour that lacks consideration for others and may cause damage to the society, whether intentionally or through negligence."

Remind you of anyone?

As for his boldness, there are plenty of knights in the series - Jaime is the only grown-up knight we meet in the entire series whose boldness, recklessness, and lack of caution or concern for consequences is so marked as to be used against him in battleplans by opposing commanders.

And yes, modern psychology applies perfectly well, since there's no such thing as modern psychology (ie, psychology only applicable to moderns). Human psychology is perennial and universal.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

No, they're filled with horrible people. Modern PC liberal stuff here, to defend criminals, but I notice none of you ever invite them over to dinner. None of you ever want to live in a neighborhood filled with ex-cons. Why not?

What a lot of nonsense, really.

First, I think no one here is saying Jaime is an angel or he deserves to walk out free. Everybody agrees on saying that what he has done is terrible, or at least, mostly here do. We're discussing if he might find redemption or not and the answer is in the books: he has done few things that prove he's actually trying to change, whatever his reasons are. The ability to change and improve is definitely something many other characters completely lack, like Tywin and Cersei, and are symptoms of a healthy mind and a normal human being. Considering that his father and Robert are both dead, anyone able to pass direct judgement to him is now gone, but he's about to face Lady Stoneheart and we might witness how he respond to that. We can't say anything else about it because we don't have the book.

Thinking a "criminal" is nothing but the crimes s/he has committed is definitely a very flawed logic: many people do find redemption in jail and repent of their crimes. I personally know a man who was in jail and now he's trying to improve his life and at least living a good life. Saying we don't want them in our homes is not for you to judge.

[Brute of Bracken]

1. Exactly.

2. It's a big deal because this an untrue generalization. First off, the bad acts of others don't excuse other bad acts. I can't go steal money and say its not a big deal because other people do it all the time. second, Jaime killing Jory shows a very blatant disregard for life that shows how monstrous Jaime truly is. He doesn't regard jory's life at all. he see's the lesson he can teach eddard.

Read the catnapping thread. the act was in a legal grey area, per GRRM, but he never says its illegal. and you're right. the guilty party was Jaime, which makes Jaime an entitled, arrogant, hypocrite. I don't see how your comparison to Daeron is relevant at all, so I'm going to ignore it.

Here's that thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92245-catnapping-a-psa/

@Cameron, your comparison is wrong because Tywin and Jaime did not take issue with legality nor guilt, they were made because they're arrogant twats who think they're above the law.

He does have disregard for life and he does unlawfully kill Jory. He did it for the same reasons he tried to kill Bran. I accept it is a crime.

I would like to point out is that this boils down to him pushing Bran - was in turn driven by his love for Cersei. Still a crime, but makes it more understandable. Not a monster, in my view - many people would do the same in real life in that situation.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

You must have heard of the Nuremberg trials too. Those people went to prison for following authority.

Are you just trolling now? This comment also has literally nothing to do with what we were discussing. We were not discussing crimes by authority figures, or supposed lawful crime. If you are literally unable to follow along in argument to this degree, maybe we're done here. But I'm pretty sure you've just got a loser of an argument and you're trolling to stop the bleeding.

[IRON BANK]

Jaime has no honor: This is a man who has sex with his sister. then continues to carry on a sexual relationship with her well into adulthood. If they had sex once or twice ok young hormones at work. If it continued 6 months, i would say, two siblings mis guided who are experimenting sexual who need to learn how to branch out and make friends. After a year I would really think they are confused and need counseling. Years go by the excuses are over. 3 children later thats just disgusting. Plain out right sick. Then you find out this man is rich can have anyone he wants even other hot chicks wow what a loser. Moving forward the sister he decides to have sex with is a narcisistic whore. who uses her body to sleep with men for favors. She is not even a good catch. Finally you find out all this is happening and This woman is married. ewww. Then you find out she is married to the king making this relationship the most dangerous and illegal of its kind. And this is a man we want to give honor to. I can understand saying he is a person who is quite mis led, but honor. This is one of the most unhonorable actions a person can make. Not including the attempted murder, lies, multiple counts of treason. Honor please thats one thing Jaime will never have.

[Minsc]

This goes back to the pushing Bran argument. Yes, it is wrong, but it is understandable as most people would do the same to save their families.

Oh you think the honorable members of Aerys' kingsguard would have done that?

Are we reading the same books? He is so conflicted about Aerys torturing Rhaella - something which no other KG member seemed to do.

He's doing what he can to keep his oath. He could have easily decided not to. Why didnn't he?

His family is vile, and he did it mainly to save his own ass

Yep, they had no idea of Aerys's plans

And did nothing, he is the only whose thoughts we read

Not really, he could have easily searched himself for Sansa

[FourmyleOfCeres]

What a lot of nonsense, really.

First, I think no one here is saying Jaime is an angel or he deserves to walk out free. Everybody agrees on saying that what he has done is terrible, or at least, mostly here do. We're discussing if he might find redemption or not and the answer is in the books: he has done few things that prove he's actually trying to change, whatever his reasons are. The ability to change and improve is definitely something many other characters completely lack, like Tywin and Cersei, and are symptoms of a healthy mind and a normal human being. Considering that his father and Robert are both dead, anyone able to pass direct judgement to him is now gone, but he's about to face Lady Stoneheart and we might witness how he respond to that. We can't say anything else about it because we don't have the book.

Thinking a "criminal" is nothing but the crimes s/he has committed is definitely a very flawed logic: many people do find redemption in jail and repent of their crimes. I personally know a man who was in jail and now he's trying to improve his life and at least living a good life. Saying we don't want them in our homes is not for you to judge.

I judge what you want by what you do. Do you have many ex-cons around?

And no, there's no redemption. I'm with Stannis on this one. Everything stays on the board, good and bad. See how those the criminals have wronged feel about their supposed redemptions.

[Brute of Bracken]

Are you just trolling now? This comment also has literally nothing to do with what we were discussing. We were not discussing crimes by authority figures, or supposed lawful crime. If you are literally unable to follow along in argument to this degree, maybe we're done here. But I'm pretty sure you've just got a loser of an argument and you're trolling to stop the bleeding.

I am going to ignore the personal attacks.

I'm going to spell out why what I said was relevant. You said prisons are filled with horrible people, to which I said they are filled with normal people who have done horrbile things. As an example, I cited research which showed that normal people can indeed to horrible things in certain situations.

[Brute of Bracken]

His family is vile, and he did it mainly to save his own ass

Yep, they had no idea of Aerys's plans

And did nothing, he is the only whose thoughts we read

Not really, he could have easily searched himself for Sansa

You think the other KG would have stopped Aerys? I highly doubt that. They are no Dunks.

And he could have told Brienne to fuck off and not care about his promise to Cat. He didn;t. Why?