Joffrey was NOT worse than Aerys

[The Dragons Hand]

Okay i have seen a few people on here and on other websites comment saying that they think Joffrey is worse than Aerys was...Well i personally believe that is ludicrous.

Joffreys track record

- Attempted to kill Bran

- Killed Ned Stark (mostly under LF's influence)

- Beat Sansa here and there

- Killed peasants with Crossbows

- Abused whores (Not sure if this is book cannon, memory is foggy)

Okay yeah, Joffrey clearly is a horrible person, but...

Aerys Track record

- Raped and abused his wife

- Cut out Ilyn Paynes toungue

- Burned people frequently and ejaculated from it

- Burned Rickard Stark alive and caused Brandon to choke to death watching on a torture device (seriously this is disgusting)

- Attempted to commit democide on half a million people with wildfire

I'm sure i left a few out for both of them but yeah as you can see i don't personally see any comparison on who was more vile. I mean yeah some will say 'Oh but Aerys started out promising'. My reply to that is so what? Him being 'nice' once doesn't suddenly erase or justify his atrocities committed later on.

Aerys was also three times older than Joffrey

Given time he could've topped him.

[The Mother of The Others]

It's the same guy, but with Joffrey killed young ala James Dean or Marylin Monroe in the early romantic phase of bad kingness, where Aerys was the fat bloated Elvis of bad kingery.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Joffrey was a sick, twisted little punk.

Aerys was worse IMO.

Given time to grow and fester Joff may have turned into Aerys 2.0 though.

[Littlestfinger]

Aerys' descent into madness and Viserys' make me wonder if the "crazy" Targaryens are born as such, or just more susceptible to it after traumatic experiences. (Not all of the Targaryens - just those that were "mad".)

#NotAllTargaryens?

Joffrey was just getting started. Also, don't forget having the Hound kill the butcher's boy, having a singer's tongue torn out for a sarcastic song, beheading poor Septa Mordane, and not just a few beatings, but an ongoing campaign of physical and psychhological torture of a completely defenseless Sansa that ended only with his death. Joffrey was a textbook sadistic psychopath and he almost certainly would have gotten nothing but worse as he aged. Aerys III? More like Caligula.

[stateofdissipation]

Rickard wasn't the only person that Aerys burnt

There were plenty of traitors

How about Joff's ordering dontos to be drowned in wine for showing up drunk to the tournament?

Did Joff even have the excuse of being held captive for several months?

[Kaguya]

#NotAllTargaryens?

Joffrey was just getting started. Also, don't forget having the Hound kill the butcher's boy, having a singer's tongue torn out for a sarcastic song, beheading poor Septa Mordane, and not just a few beatings, but an ongoing campaign of physical and psychhological torture of a completely defenseless Sansa that ended only with his death. Joffrey was a textbook sadistic psychopath and he almost certainly would have gotten nothing but worse as he aged. Aerys III? More like Caligula.

All of this was Cersei's work in the book apart from the singer incident (both Joff and Cersei abused Sansa). And did that singer incident even happen in the book? Memory is foggy there too.

[LordStoneheart]

Context. Your view of this can't work without the context.

[Kaguya]

There were plenty of traitors

How about Joff's ordering dontos to be drowned in wine for showing up drunk to the tournament?

Did Joff even have the excuse of being held captive for several months?

Joffreys excuse was being molded by his psychopathic mother. If you're going to throw pitiful excuses towards Aerys then allow me to do the same with poor victim Joffrey.

[Hodor's Dragon]

It's the same guy, but with Joffrey killed young ala James Dean or Marylin Monroe in the early romantic phase of bad kingness, where Aerys was the fat bloated Elvis of bad kingery.

:thumbsup:

[Littlestfinger]

All of this was Cersei's work in the book apart from the singer incident (both Joff and Cersei abused Sansa). And did that singer incident even happen in the book? Memory is foggy there too.

Yes to the latter question. And Joffrey was far worse to Sansa - dragging her up to see the heads on spikes, threatening to rape her on her wedding night, having his KG strip her. To him Sansa was a fly he very much enjoyed slowly ripping the wings off of. Cirsei was the one who ordered Lady killed, but Joffrey was the one who claimed the butcher's boy and Nymeria attacked him.

[stateofdissipation]

Joffreys excuse was being molded by his psychopathic mother. If you're going to throw pitiful excuses towards Aerys then allow me to do the same with poor victim Joffrey.

Not an excuse... a justification... it is only natural to want to do harm to those that harm us or threaten us. Aerys had real enemies; the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Arryns... Aerys actions were against those enemies.

Have we seen an marriage between two great houses that did not involve a play for a crown?.... No. Rheagar broke up the Baratheon Stark wedding pact. The execution of Brandon delayed the Stark Tully wedding pact. Aerys maddness was to send a message to kill Robert and Ned rather than an army.

The cruelties of Joffrey were neither a reaction nor directed against those that sought to do him harm.

Mobs of peasants did not try to kill Aerys... that should kind of give you a clue as to who was worse....

On the quiet isle, the elder brother mused on his reasons for siding with the Targs and they were because some lord that swore to some lord that swore to some lord otherwise he might have been standing on the other side of the river. The rebellion against aerys was a top down rebellion. The lords had had enough of him. Joff managed to piss off KL so badly they mobbed him.

[Kaguya]

Yes to the latter question. And Joffrey was far worse to Sansa - dragging her up to see the heads on spikes, threatening to rape her on her wedding night, having his KG strip her. To him Sansa was a fly he very much enjoyed slowly ripping the wings off of. Cirsei was the one who ordered Lady killed, but Joffrey was the one who claimed the butcher's boy and Nymeria attacked him.

It's not confirmed either way but Ned hinted in the book Cersei had Mycah killed when he said "The result of the cruel women Sandor served". Obviously Joff would have supported the idea though.

[Kaguya]

Not an excuse... a justification... it is only natural to want to do harm to those that harm us or threaten us. Aerys had real enemies; the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Arryns... Aerys actions were against those enemies.

Have we seen an marriage between two great houses that did not involve a play for a crown?.... No. Rheagar broke up the Baratheon Stark wedding pact. The execution of Brandon delayed the Stark Tully wedding pact. Aerys maddness was to send a message to kill Robert and Ned rather than an army.

The cruelties of Joffrey were neither a reaction nor directed against those that sought to do him harm.

Mobs of peasants did not try to kill Aerys... that should kind of give you a clue as to who was worse....

On the quiet isle, the elder brother mused on his reasons for siding with the Targs and they were because some lord that swore to some lord that swore to some lord otherwise he might have been standing on the other side of the river. The rebellion against aerys was a top down rebellion. The lords had had enough of him. Joff managed to piss off KL so badly they mobbed him.

Yes, a very poor justification. You're saying that if i was to be captured i would suddenly develop a fetish of watching people burn to death? Gotcha.

As for the peasants...I'm going to bring up Tywin again. Most peasants preferred Aery's rule because Tywin kept the realm in peace for years. Whereas look who was doing the ruling during Joffreys rule....His mother. She was the one governing the realm and starving the peasants, Joffrey was just a figurehead because he hadn't come of age. Obviously i am not implying Joff gave a shit about peasants, just thought i would remind you of that whole situation. And let's not forget Stannis's letters, they gave the peasants another reason to rebel against Joff.

In the end though Aerys clearly didn't give a shit about peasants because he was willing to kill them all before meeting his deserving fate.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Ya know what makes Joff worse then Aerys? Age. He was doing these terrible things right after he started reigning. Aerys was a good man until the Defiance truly breaks him, opening up the door to the madness.

So, if given time to get to Aerys age, I truly think Joff would have done more terrible things and been more terrible for the realm overall then Aerys. Yeah, Aerys caused RR by immediately executing the stark lord and heir, where if he was sane still I feel he would have tried a more political solution (based on his old character).

Joff caused TWOTFK with Neds execution. He knew exactly what he was doing and just wanted to do it, he knew it would mean war. Didn't care at all.

I mean at least Aerys had some right to punish Brandon for threatening the crown princes life (death is extreme, a tounge not much better, a lashing at best?), Ned was innocent.

You don't give a megalomaniac more power, which is what happened with Joff haha

Oh and he skinned Tommens fawn and turned it into a jerkin.

[Kaguya]

Ya know what makes Joff worse then Aerys? Age. He was doing these terrible things right after he started reigning. Aerys was a good man until the Defiance truly breaks him, opening up the door to the madness.

So, if given time to get to Aerys age, I truly think Joff would have done more terrible things and been more terrible for the realm overall then Aerys. Yeah, Aerys caused RR by immediately executing the stark lord and heir, where if he was sane still I feel he would have tried a more political solution (based on his old character).

Joff caused TWOTFK with Neds execution. He knew exactly what he was doing and just wanted to do it, he knew it would mean war. Didn't care at all.

I mean at least Aerys had some right to punish Brandon for threatening the crown princes life (death is extreme, a tounge not much better, a lashing at best?), Ned was innocent.

You don't give a megalomaniac more power, which is what happened with Joff haha

Oh and he skinned Tommens fawn and turned it into a jerkin.

Joff was basically influenced by Littlefinger in executing Ned, this is close to factual now. Littlefinger and Lysa both started that war.

I really see Age as irrelevant when they were both kings (sure Joff didnt have absolute power in governing but he was still free to do whatever he wished in regards to personal violence), and i also see the fact that Aerys was once good as irrelevant too, because it does not change the horrible things he did later on. So what, he had some good on his record, whoopdy do?

Joff skinned a fawn? Aerys was going to wipe out Kings landing, so comparable.

[LordStoneheart]

It's neither a justification nor a poor example. It's context. You say "captured" as if that was a walk in the park. do you think the Darklyn's treated Aerys well? I'm going only by assumptions, but I have to conclude that Aerys was probably a poorly treated hostage perhaps in a similar vein to Reek, though obviously not as bad.

[stateofdissipation]

Yes, a very poor justification. You're saying that if i was to be captured i would suddenly develop a fetish of watching people burn to death? Gotcha.

As for the peasants...I'm going to bring up Tywin again. Most peasants preferred Aery's rule because Tywin kept the realm in peace for years. Whereas look who was doing the ruling during Joffreys rule....His mother. She was the one governing the realm and starving the peasants, Joffrey was just a figurehead because he hadn't come of age. Obviously i am not implying Joff gave a shit about peasants, just thought i would remind you of that whole situation. And let's not forget Stannis's letters, they gave the peasants another reason to rebel against Joff.

In the end though Aerys clearly didn't give a shit about peasants because he was willing to kill them all before meeting his deserving fate.

Well maybe after you burned a few people that really deserved it you might get into it...I dono BBQs and sex go together like... um something that goes well with something else.. Campfires too... who am I to say that throwing a person on there would not make it better. I have never tried. Not sure it is on my to do list...

Now, torturing your enemies to death and not enjoying it is kind of like masturbating and crying... If you are going to do it.. does feeling bad about it make it better?

Umm, if we are going to argue figureheads... Payne was right when he said Tywin really ruled the kingdom... If you would like to compare administrations. Aerys was way better than Joff's. But in the end the king is responsible for everything that happens or doesn't happen. I am pretty sure Aerys did not set the torch to Rickard or fashion the noose for his son. If he ordered it or it happened under his reign it is his doing...

I really don't get this whole caring and feeling being the basis for good or evil.

Lets take a housefire for example...

one man cheers and doesn't care... another weeps and cares deeply does either make a damned bit of difference to those trapped inside? Is one good and the other bad?

The cheering man gets a hose and puts the fire out... while the weeping man watches. who is the good guy then?

I hold that one is good or evil based solely on actions and the consequences of those actions. If you don't do anything you can't be good or bad. If you do something your feelings wont make it better or worse.

[LordStoneheart]

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.

The beginning of Aerys' reign is not irrelevant because if you really want to compare these two you have to give the full context, else your argument is flawed. Aerys was a better king than Joffrey by simply having a good tenure on his resumes. Yes, he descended into madness. Fact. We know. That's not the only thing that should be focused.

Another fact. Joffrey was nearly as sadistic as Aerys was before the age of eleven. Before he even became a king. When he became king he had a bad reign from beginning to end. One of his first acts was killing Eddard, and no matter how much blame you can rightfully give to LF in this regard, it was still Joff that gave the order. LF didn't have the power there. His reign ended with him both threatening to rape Sansa and serve her dead brother's head to her. His reign started bad, and ended bad. He was a worse king. And I know you think it's irrelevant to say it, but many others are bringing it up, so it's obviously important in viewing this; had Joff lived, he would have only gotten worse. That's all too obvious.

As a person, Aerys was worse but honestly, why argue this? That's like saying "this pile of horseshit smells way worse than this other pile of horseshit!" I suppose to make the analogy completely, the AerysShit started as grass whereas the JoffreyShit was probably the horse eating other horseshit.

[Kaguya]

As a person, Aerys was worse but honestly, why argue this? That's like saying "this pile of horseshit smells way worse than this other pile of horseshit!" I suppose to make the analogy completely, the AerysShit started as grass whereas the JoffreyShit was probably the horse eating other horseshit.

Well because i have seen a lot of people say it and i thought i would start an open debate about it. It's not hurting anyone is it? Put it this way. Who's presence would you be more comfortable to be around out of these two? With Joffrey you simply have to praise him and show your loyalty and you will mostly get out alive. With Aery's, you would need to tread lightly and think of what yo say, or he could suddenly take your words and twist them and end up killing you.

[Ulthosian Stark]

My point was that given time Joff would be worse then Aerys, how is age irrelevant? He is referred to as the the Boy King yet he is as violent and sadistic as someone twice his age would be. If he got as old as Aerys, he would probably be doing a lot worse then just burning people. Like yeah that sucks but I'd rather be burned then flayed. Or given the Vargo Hoat treatment.

My whole point is, Aerys went mad at a late age, Joff was practically born the way he was. Joff would be remembered way worse then Aerys if he lived out his life in power, if only because he always had and would have done fucked up things all the time and his violent reign would have been longer then the period Aerys went mad

I get the feeling you like Joff lol