Jump to content

Victarion most evil character?


Storm Knight

Recommended Posts

The picture of this sour old crone poking her wrinkled fingers up Margaery's little pink cunt was so droll that Cersei almost laughed. "We insist that His High Holiness allow our own maesters to examine my good-daughter, to determine if there is any shred of truth to these slanders. Grand Maester Pycelle, you shall accompany Septa Moelle back to Beloved Baelor's Sept, and return to us with the truth about our Margaery's maidenhead."

There is Cersei enjoying the sexual humiliation of an innocent girl and indirectly, trying to impose more of that to her. The crime? Her son liked the little Queen.

I said in my comment that Cersei likes to see her enemies fail. what i meant by that is that cersei doesn't get any joy from sending people to qyburn from example. i don't recall her ever getting any pleasure from qyburn doing those awful experiments.

ummmm its pretty obvious that the tyrells and Margaery were actively conspiring against Cersei's downfall in AFFC. and they did kill Joffrey.....I think Cersei's fucking awful for being amused by the septa touching margaery. also victarion fucking allowed his crew to rape the maester just to remind you once again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still treason. If all he wanted to do was save his life, he should have brought over everyone else to Stannis once he got away from King's Landing. I also doubt he would have won the war on his own. Both Donal Noye and Catelyn observed that he was fairly incompetent as a commander.

Not saying Stannis was a saint by any means - but treason is commonly (even in modern times) punishable by death. And Renly's actions are clearly treason within the structure of the time.

Storm’s End was given to Renly by Robert. He does not owe anything to Stannis. Stannis acts like a whiny bitch about Storm's End but neither the castle nor the men sworn to Storm's End were his. And according to Renly, Joffrey and his siblings were legitimate and real. While Stannis was hiding with his tail between his legs and keeping the twincest to himself, Renly did he best thing he could have done. Renly had a lot of good commanders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course we should blame Cersei for it. She spoiled and enabled Joffrey and gave him all the love and freedom in the world. I'm not saying we should blame Tywin for everything, I'm saying that its clear that Cersei models parenting from Tywin even though she loves her children much more than Tywin loves his kids imo. and I can't see Cersei ever being as awful to give Tommen the Tysha treatment as awful of a parent as she is.

That user said that Victarion is a product of their environment which I would agree to en extent. In my opinion, it is ALWAYS both nature and nurture that develops a person. Its never only one. My question is if people can say that Victarion is infleunced by his environment, can't we say that Tywin's parenting is also responsible for how Cersei turned out to be to an extent. I think Cersei should be accountable for her own actions, but one can't deny that Tywin's parenting fucked her up.

and no Tywin was a fucking abhorrent father

Do you have anything from the text that shows him being an awful father to Cersei? He fucked Tyrion up but I don't remember anything about him being cruel to his precious twins. Cersei choose to try and be like him, it was her own choice. Joffrey tries to be like Robert, does that mean Robert is to blame for every cruel act Joff commits?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh? Is this the same Cersei who fucked her brother on her wedding day? This poor gal who lacked any agency her whole life? The same Cersei who convinced her brother to join the KG and give up his inheritance to be near her? The same Cersei who threw Melara down the well? LMAO.

This same Cersei was also raped, abused and beaten by her husband for 17 years. She was paraded around as a trophy by her shit dad just so he could further his own political father.

Her relationship with Jaime is the only consensual relationship she's ever had, its one that she pursued herself . I made that clear in my comment. And who gives a fuck is banged Jaime on her wedding day. Robert banged a billion women before he got married to Cersei as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That user said that Victarion is a product of their environment which I would agree to en extent. In my opinion, it is ALWAYS both nature and nurture that develops a person. Its never only one. My question is if people can say that Victarion is infleunced by his environment, can't we say that Tywin's parenting is also responsible for how Cersei turned out to be to an extent. I think Cersei should be accountable for her own actions, but one can't deny that Tywin's parenting fucked her up.

The set of morals of the Ironborn is much different from that of the rest of Westeros and/or the North. While Tywin is a terrible man, he doesn't go around killing/torturing people for the sake of it. His lame justifications of the crimes he has committed are nothing but that, excuses, yet, there is a reason for it and he's not a sadistic man. He didn't exterminate the Raynes because "hey, it would be a fun thing to do a Sunday afternoon", but because it was needed, according to him, to send a lesson that the Lannisters are not mean to be laughed of. It was a thing of surviving. In the same way, Randyll Tarly. I didn't see her all smiles and giggles about punishing people. If anything, after a war and devastation, severe punishes and orders are meant to be done. These both are harsh man that need to take harsh decisions that we feel horrified of, but they are fighting a war: men in war, even in modern days, even men who are naturally good men, are able or are needed to commit actions we would rather not know. Victarion is the same: if he doesn't act "Ironborn", his men won't respect them and probably kill him and find a cause to rebel against his House, considering it weak.

That doesn't happen with Cersei. Cersei enjoys her cruelty and she's cruel because she's deficient as a leader, she things being cruel is being strong, and she thinks she's entitled to cruelty because "she's a lion", and even worst, she (and many of her fans) tries to make a victim of hers. She's not a victim. She's not the first woman in her same situation in Westeros and yet, you don't see them around ordering to kill babies or sending people to being tortured. This whole "she's the first one taking control of her body!!!" is, imho, bs, because we've seen many other women taking control of their bodies without using cruelty nor playing the victim role.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you have anything from the text that shows him being an awful father to Cersei? He fucked Tyrion up but I don't remember anything about him being cruel to his precious twins. Cersei choose to try and be like him, it was her own choice. Joffrey tries to be like Robert, does that mean Robert is to blame for every cruel act Joff commits?

ummmmm how about him parading her around like a trophy and trying to sell her like livestock in one marriage after another and thinking of her a baby making machine. or how he actively puts her and Tyrion against each other. or how he probably definitely enabled her hatred for tyrion?? or how he never smiled at her again after Joanna died (Cersei is the only child he ever smiled so I think it hurt her even more than it hurt Jaime).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Her relationship with Jaime is the only consensual relationship she's ever had, its one that she pursued herself .

Lancel says hi to you.

You are a blind Cersei licker. I suggest you to read the books carefully. You do not know what you are licking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This same Cersei was also raped, abused and beaten by her husband for 17 years. She was paraded around as a trophy by her shit dad just so he could further his own political father.

Her relationship with Jaime is the only consensual relationship she's ever had, its one that she pursued herself . I made that clear in my comment. And who gives a fuck is banged Jaime on her wedding day. Robert banged a billion women before he got married to Cersei as well.

Um, Lancel, Kettleblacks, Taena, all consensual. You brought up that her bearing Joff was the first time she ever excercised her own agency, and I pointed out this was an error, Cersei has been exercising agency since she was a child, indeed, she has more agency than any woman in Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ummmmm how about him parading her around like a trophy and trying to sell her like livestock in one marriage after another and thinking of her a baby making machine. or how he actively puts her and Tyrion against each other. or how he probably definitely enabled her hatred for tyrion?? or how he never smiled at her again after Joanna died (Cersei is the only child he ever smiled so I think it hurt her even more than it hurt Jaime).

This doesn't make Tywin a terrible parent. It makes him a normal High Lord father with a daughter. In the culture and age that ASOIAF is set, that's what daughters are for. They are to be married off in a good political and economic match to provide heirs. Tywin was more cold to Cersei's desires but as Lord and Master he does have control over her life. Sucks? Yes of course. But that's the setting. And let's not forget, Cersei wanted to be Queen. She wanted to marry Rhaegar--Aerys got in the way there. But Cersei was excited about marrying the Prince and producing his heirs.

I will grant that Tywin is an abhorrent father to Tyrion.

Lancel says hi to you.

You are a blind Cersei licker. I suggest you to read the books carefully. You do not know what you are licking.

And the Kettleback she sleeps with (I can never remember which O Kettleback it is....) and Lady Merryweather.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This same Cersei was also raped, abused and beaten by her husband for 17 years. She was paraded around as a trophy by her shit dad just so he could further his own political father.

She had no problem being paraded around so long as she had the delusion that she was this goddess that every man in Westeros lusted after her, then "Lyanna" happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The set of morals of the Ironborn is much different from that of the rest of Westeros and/or the North. While Tywin is a terrible man, he doesn't go around killing/torturing people for the sake of it. His lame justifications of the crimes he has committed are nothing but that, excuses, yet, there is a reason for it and he's not a sadistic man. He didn't exterminate the Raynes because "hey, it would be a fun thing to do a Sunday afternoon", but because it was needed, according to him, to send a lesson that the Lannisters are not mean to be laughed of. It was a thing of surviving. In the same way, Randyll Tarly. I didn't see her all smiles and giggles about punishing people. If anything, after a war and devastation, severe punishes and orders are meant to be done. These both are harsh man that need to take harsh decisions that we feel horrified of, but they are fighting a war: men in war, even in modern days, even men who are naturally good men, are able or are needed to commit actions we would rather not know. Victarion is the same: if he doesn't act "Ironborn", his men won't respect them and probably kill him and find a cause to rebel against his House, considering it weak.

That doesn't happen with Cersei. Cersei enjoys her cruelty and she's cruel because she's deficient as a leader, she things being cruel is being strong, and she thinks she's entitled to cruelty because "she's a lion", and even worst, she (and many of her fans) tries to make a victim of hers. She's not a victim. She's not the first woman in her same situation in Westeros and yet, you don't see them around ordering to kill babies or sending people to being tortured. This whole "she's the first one taking control of her body!!!" is, imho, bs, because we've seen many other women taking control of their bodies without using cruelty nor playing the victim role.

where the fuck does Cersei enjoy the murder of babies. would you please like to show me in the text, where Cersei gets sadistic pleasure or glee from murdering Robert's babies?? If I recall correctly, Cersei ordered the murder of Robert's babies because she wanted to weaken Stannis' claim and secure Joffrey's throne. It was purely for political reasons.

I never said that any of Cersei's crimes were justified or that I condoned her crimes. I'm merely trying to argue why I think Victarion is far more evil than her which he is, I'm pretty sure even GRRM agrees with me on this one. YOU KNOW WHY?? because he writes Victarion that way and he's straight up said that "victarion is a dullard and a brute".

and FUCK NO TYWIN IS A FUCKING WAR CRIMINAL, the genocide of the Raynes didn't have to be done. There's no justifications for his damn actions. He's a straight up terrorist who is directly responsible for fucking up the system of Westeros. the Red Wedding fucked up the Oathbreaking policy and guest right system. I can't at people who take his psychopathic cruel quotes like "tell me how its more cruel to kill a dozen people at a wedding". He's a monster jfc.

you know what i think i'm done with you here, we clearly have very different ways of interpreting this series. I'm under the belief that we're supposed to be interpret this series from a 21st century POV. the environments that these characters live in help explain their actions but don't justify them. whether its victarion, cersei, tywin, jaime etc etc. but you're under the impression that some things "have to be done" which i don't agree with at all

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She had no problem being paraded around so long as she had the delusion that she was this goddess that every man in Westeros lusted after her, then "Lyanna" happened.

Jfc since when does being shallow and arrogant make it okay for a woman to be raped and abused??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This doesn't make Tywin a terrible parent. It makes him a normal High Lord father with a daughter. In the culture and age that ASOIAF is set, that's what daughters are for. They are to be married off in a good political and economic match to provide heirs. Tywin was more cold to Cersei's desires but as Lord and Master he does have control over her life. Sucks? Yes of course. But that's the setting. And let's not forget, Cersei wanted to be Queen. She wanted to marry Rhaegar--Aerys got in the way there. But Cersei was excited about marrying the Prince and producing his heirs.

I will grant that Tywin is an abhorrent father to Tyrion.

And the Kettleback she sleeps with (I can never remember which O Kettleback it is....) and Lady Merryweather.

except it totally does. When Ned realized that Joffrey was a monster he wanted to break off the marriage pact. Even after Cersei has had 3 children and was begging to not be married off to another man, he tried to marry her off to another man.

jfc when people realize that GRRM and the narrative doesn't agree with the whole selling women into marriage bullshit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jfc since when does being shallow and arrogant make it okay for a woman to be raped and abused??

Jfc when did I say it was? My point was it can't be bad parenting if she doesn't even object to it. If you can show me where she protested Tywin trying to marry her to Robert or Rhaegar I will take it back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

except it totally does. When Ned realized that Joffrey was a monster he wanted to break off the marriage pact. Even after Cersei has had 3 children and was begging to not be married off to another man, he tried to marry her off to another man.

jfc when people realize that GRRM and the narrative doesn't agree with the whole selling women into marriage bullshit?

Just for the record, men are sold into marriage the same as women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

when I said that Jaime is the consensual relationship Cersei has had, I meant she's the only man that she's had sex with that she actually wanted to have sex with. Her sleeping with Osney and Lancel were for purely utilitarian purposes. and considering how Lancel was frogiven for his sin with sleeping with Cersei and the line "keep the crown on, i like you in the crown" says a lot.



whatever i've said what i wanted to say here. i think i'm done. I interpret this series from a 21st century's POV and only use the setting to understand the characters, NOT JUSTIFY or condone what they've done and other's don't. which is something i don't agree with and i'm not in the damn mood of arguing with people who have a clear different interpretation of this series than me .bye.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still treason. If all he wanted to do was save his life, he should have brought over everyone else to Stannis once he got away from King's Landing. I also doubt he would have won the war on his own. Both Donal Noye and Catelyn observed that he was fairly incompetent as a commander.

Not saying Stannis was a saint by any means - but treason is commonly (even in modern times) punishable by death. And Renly's actions are clearly treason within the structure of the time.

Noye's opinion of the Baratheon brothers is laughable, Robert is not true steel, he rusted and turned brittle pretty damn fast, Stannis compromises way more than he is given credit for, and Renly was far from being worthless, Noye had last seen him when he was a child and besides, Renly would have easily won the war without Stannis's diabolus ex machina.

As for Cat, she never says he is incompetent, she thinks he takes things too lightly but also remarks how well he deals with his lords.

And as Renly pointed out, his actions are no less treasonous than Robert's were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jfc when did I say it was? My point was it can't be bad parenting if she doesn't even object to it. If you can show me where she protested Tywin trying to marry her to Robert or Rhaegar I will take it back.

she clearly objected to all the marriages that Tywin tried to make in ASOS, but he was forcing her into it anyways. Tywin may not have known that robert was abusive towards her but he knows that he was an asshole to her.

its true that young!cersei wanted to marry the king to become queen, she was similar to sansa in that way. i'm not denying that.

tywin is still a shitty parent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

except men have power over the women and 20 times more agency and power.

It doesn't change the fact that FAMILIES and in particular FATHERS make the decisions for who their children will wed, males and females. Tywin attempted to "sell" Jamie and Tyrion in marriage the same as he did Cersei. Ned Stark married Cat because it was a family obligation, nothing more, he was sold into marriage the same as she was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...