Victarion most evil character?

[BearQueen87]

except it totally does. When Ned realized that Joffrey was a monster he wanted to break off the marriage pact. Even after Cersei has had 3 children and was begging to not be married off to another man, he tried to marry her off to another man.

jfc when people realize that GRRM and the narrative doesn't agree with the whole selling women into marriage bullshit?

I said it sucks, right? But that's what fathers do in this setting. They have control over their daughters. Ned wants to break the marriage pact when he falls out of favor with Robert (over Dany) and they are to head back to Winterfell. Until then, he realizes that Joff is a little shit but he doesn't actively seek to dissolve the betrothal. From Tywin's perspective, Cersei is still young, beautiful, and fertile. He needs her to marry another man in order to secure political and economic concerns. From a 21st century POV, it's disturbing to be sure but the fact is, those characters do not live in our historical reality. They live in one that is more akin to medieval Europe. You cannot put your own 21st century moral perspective on those who do not abide by it or have knowledge of it.

I do have sympathy for Cersei because I am a 21st century woman who finds the idea of being sold abhorrent. But Tywin acting like other fathers does not a bad parent make.

[jaimecersei]

It doesn't change the fact that FAMILIES and in particular FATHERS make the decisions for who their children will wed, males and females. Tywin attempted to "sell" Jamie and Tyrion in marriage the same as he did Cersei. Ned Stark married Cat because it was a family obligation, nothing more, he was sold into marriage the same as she was.

good job on missing the point

ugh why am i even commenting on this post anymore

ok bye for real now

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You all know that when arguments like "cersei is a victim of the patriarchal society that is Westeros" or similar emerge is time to end the discussion. It's like ASOIAF's own Godwin's law.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

You all know that when arguments like "cersei is a victim of the patriarchal society that is Westeros" or similar emerge is time to end the discussion. It's like ASOIAF's own Godwin's law.

LOL, I was just reading how interesting it did become in here, and then....left. Ha :cheers:

[Littlestfinger]

when I said that Jaime is the consensual relationship Cersei has had, I meant she's the only man that she's had sex with that she actually wanted to have sex with. Her sleeping with Osney and Lancel were for purely utilitarian purposes.

That's somehow supposed to make her more sympathetic? And while Osney is just bad judgment on her part, Lancel was really an innocent kid whom she took advantage of and got into a very bad, possibly deadly situation. As Tyrion pointed out, anyone (and especially Cirsei) could predict what would happen when Jaime inevitably found out. It was only lucky for Lancel (and Osney, and maybe Moon Boy) Jaime was a very different person by the time he got back.

I can't imagine why anyone would defend Cirsei. AS A GIRL SHE TORTURED HER BABY BROTHER FOR FUN AND THREW HER BEST FRIEND DOWN A WELL. Nobody made her do that, not Maggy, not Tywin, not the Patriarchy, no one. Cirsei is a vile, evil, unscrupulous, unbelievably selfish person, far worse than either of her brothers. In fact, the bit with Melara is pretty classic psychopath behavior.

Worse than Victarion, that's like asking who is worse: Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

good job on missing the point

ugh why am i even commenting on this post anymore

ok bye for real now

What is it with all these crazy men who don't understand what agency is!!!!!

[Nictarion]

And the Kettleback she sleeps with (I can never remember which O Kettleback it is....) and Lady Merryweather.

And Moonboy for all we know....

[Charles Calthrop]

also Joffrey was just born a sociopath so I'm not sure how much Cersei could have done and Robert is just as responsible as Cersei for how Joffrey ended up being.

Robert had his faults, but this is absolutely incorrect. If Joffrey was born with mental issues, it's not implausible (actually pretty likely) that incest (between identical twins no less) was responsible for that. Additionally Robert expresses concern about how bad Joffrey is, and tried disciplining him before Cersei intervened to stop him.

Also, since Joff isn't actually Robert's, this one is almost entirely on Cersei. To some small degree it's on Jaime as well (for giving in to Cersei), but she pushed even him away.

[Charles Calthrop]

Right, but Stannis was still Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and head of House Baratheon after Robert. He absolutely owes fealty to Stannis. Storm's End is Renly's, but that's it. And frankly, after Robert's death, Stannis could have taken that back as well. So.... yeah still treason.

Also, if Renly thought Joff was legit... yeah still treason. I'm no Stannis fan, but if Stannis was hiding with his tail between his legs, what exactly did Renly do when he ran away from King's Landing with Robert's body not yet cold? You can't call it 'smart and self-preserving' on Renly's part and cowardly on Stannis' part.

Also who were these 'lots of good commanders'? The Reach has Randyll Tarly and Paxter Redwyne - and Tarly wasn't with Renly's camp, and Redwyne didn't join the Renly/Tyrell alliance because both his sons were hostages in KL.

I had no strong opinions on Renly either way before, but the more I think about it, he pretty much got what he deserved.

Storm’s End was given to Renly by Robert. He does not owe anything to Stannis. Stannis acts like a whiny bitch about Storm's End but neither the castle nor the men sworn to Storm's End were his. And according to Renly, Joffrey and his siblings were legitimate and real. While Stannis was hiding with his tail between his legs and keeping the twincest to himself, Renly did he best thing he could have done. Renly had a lot of good commanders.

[Charles Calthrop]

Joffrey tries to be like Robert, does that mean Robert is to blame for every cruel act Joff commits?

How? Robert fights grown men on the battlefield. Joff cuts kittens and abuses his little brother. Joff isn't even trying to be like Robert - in fact he shied away from standing on the walls of his castle during a siege. Robert would have opened the gates and waded right on to the shore.

[Charles Calthrop]

This same Cersei was also raped, abused and beaten by her husband for 17 years. She was paraded around as a trophy by her shit dad just so he could further his own political father.

Blah blah blah. This one gets so overplayed. Raped? They didn't have sex - Cersei saw to that. Abused? If anyone got abused in that duo it was Robert. Beaten? He hits her ONCE in the text. Inexcusable, but there's nothing to suggest he went around doing that on a regular basis. In fact - it looks like he did everything he could to avoid her - because she was a toxic, obnoxious person. It really seemed more like she would seek him out to antagonize him/incessantly stick her nose in things.

Tywin didn't parade her, if anything he shot down potential matches for her (such as Oberyn, arranged by Joanna). On the flip side it was HER precious ambition to be queen, so first he proposed a match with Rhaegar (which she was more than fine with). Aerys rejected that. Then Jon Arryn and he arranged for her to marry Robert - which again, she had no objections to.

She whines and bitches about him calling out 'Lyanna' while banging her the first night when she'd nailed Jaime a few hours before. I don't fault her for having sex with Jaime - just for being a bloody hypocrite and citing his (minor) infraction as a high crime.

Retroactively she does a lot of complaining about "boo hoo poor Cersei doesn't get to do what she wants because she's a woman" - but Cersei always gets what she wants/asks for. It just usually doesn't turn out well for her, because she's not very perceptive.

[Charles Calthrop]

Um, Lancel, Kettleblacks, Taena, all consensual. You brought up that her bearing Joff was the first time she ever excercised her own agency, and I pointed out this was an error, Cersei has been exercising agency since she was a child, indeed, she has more agency than any woman in Westeros.

And in Taena's case, a few things that aren't consensual on Taena's part - the great Cersei who "is the first woman to take control of her body" sexually abuses another woman. (And then the stuff she does to marge or the girls she sends to Qyburn.)

I seriously don't see how some readers can view Cersei as a strong feminist model with the things she does to women.

[Lord Reaver]

Wow, how did I not see this thread before. Hilarious.

But seriously, no. Vic isn't even close to the likes of Ramsay, Cersei, the Mountain, and pretty much every single member of Hoat's crew. Not to mention the mountain's guys. Hell, his own brother is much worse, if the stories about him are true.

[Charles Calthrop]

Wow, how did I not see this thread before. Hilarious.

But seriously, no. Vic isn't even close to the likes of Ramsay, Cersei, the Mountain, and pretty much every single member of Hoat's crew. Not to mention the mountain's guys. Hell, his own brother is much worse, if the stories about him are true.

The mountain's guys - how could we forget. Pretty much a gallery of the most effed up psychos in Planetos.

[Lord Reaver]

The mountain's guys - how could we forget. Pretty much a gallery of the most effed up psychos in Planetos.

Exactly. What defines Vic isn't "evil", it's callousness and being dutiful. Basically, the intrinsic value of human life to him is close to zero. Combine that with the fact he's just so happy to jump at whatever anyone in a position of authority tells him to do, and you have a recipe for pretty terrible stuff.

In the end, his actions are many times "evil", making him a decidedly dark character (one could argue his really atrocious stuff only happens after that business with Morocco and the hand, and that he's not longer quite the same guy, but that's a different matter, I suppose).

But they aren't done for his enjoyment or pleasure like most of the characters higher up on the hierarchy of messedupness. He cries when he beats his wife to death, and while his reflections on the screams of the women he burns to death is disturbing, it's not giving him pleasure, so much as it is making him hopeful that he's pleased two gods at once.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I seriously don't see how some readers can view Cersei as a strong feminist model with the things she does to women.

Exactly. Because nothing she does speaks of such. Only of a severely disturbed woman whose only main concern is herself.

If Cersei had indeed had some "agency" (gosh, I hate that word), then she should have realised the needs to be prepared as a leader, and, instead of going around the Red Keep sleeping with her brother, she could have looked a way to educate herself and Joffrey better, so in case the realm ends up in her hands, she can make the right decisions. She did not such a thing.

Cersei was infatuated with the idea of being a Queen, having a power exercised via her husband, the King. Never she ever looked to have any kind of power by herself, except the countless delusions she has of how she deserves the throne, when she actually doesn't. And she doesn't realise her power was only based on the wishes of others, because by law, Margaery is the Queen now, not hers. And she seek to destroy her and humiliate her only because she married his son and happened to fit the description of the one girl who would be her ruin, according to some prophecy. Yeah, feminist icon my ass.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

I consider Victarion to be a protagonist.

[Howlin' Howland]

This Cersei thread is getting interesting but I'll stick with the OP's topic.

I think I remember an interview where GRRM described Victarion as a "dumb jock." That sounds about right to me. He's not very bright, he's very good at violence, he's superstitious, and he was raised with a warped code of morality.

If the story plays out the way I think it will all the people who think Victarion is going to "join" Dany and give her the Iron Fleet are going to be in for a bit of a shock.

[Mithras]

In Victarion's last chapter, he became aligned with the Red Priest and deviated from the ironborn way so much as to hear blasphemies from Moqorro but do nothing about it. That chapter is called Victarion, unlike any other Greyjoy POV characters who have sobriquets as their chapter titles. Theon is half a Stark and different from the other ironborn.

That is a strong suggestion that Victarion is changing. I think he will continue to surprise many readers.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Exactly. Because nothing she does speaks of such. Only of a severely disturbed woman whose only main concern is herself.

If Cersei had indeed had some "agency" (gosh, I hate that word), then she should have realised the needs to be prepared as a leader, and, instead of going around the Red Keep sleeping with her brother, she could have looked a way to educate herself and Joffrey better, so in case the realm ends up in her hands, she can make the right decisions. She did not such a thing.

Cersei was infatuated with the idea of being a Queen, having a power exercised via her husband, the King. Never she ever looked to have any kind of power by herself, except the countless delusions she has of how she deserves the throne, when she actually doesn't. And she doesn't realise her power was only based on the wishes of others, because by law, Margaery is the Queen now, not hers. And she seek to destroy her and humiliate her only because she married his son and happened to fit the description of the one girl who would be her ruin, according to some prophecy. Yeah, feminist icon my ass.

I hate that word, too. See, I knew I liked you, LOL And, being a woman, I'm allowed to hate that word, consider it my exercising of my 'agency.' ;) Cersei does seem a poster child to illustrate how a woman should NOT act toward other women. She's not as smart as she thinks she is, but still, Victarion doesn't have quite enough smarts to be on the same level as Cersei when it comes to 'evilness.'