Greyjoys vs GRRM

[Kharn]

Strange title but bare with me...

GRRM has specifically stated that there is nothing pure good or pure evil in his asoiaf.

Which means anything we perceive as pure evil isn't actually the case, white walkers being top of the list. We haven't read or seen enough about white walkers to understand where the good exists.

But, we have read and seen much of house greyjoy and I struggle to see ANYTHING good in them...

Some people might say that its all just an individuals POV on how he/she perceives the events.

But there is a general idea of what is good and what is evil in the real and fictional world.

To top this off and I know this is reallly skeptical since its show based but....the ironborn actually look physically evil compare their appearance to every other house even the boltons and the greyjoys just seem pure evil.

But GRRMs quote is interesting I suspect house greyjoy is going to take a complete role reversal in the last books.

[Ruthven]

Asha.

/end thread

If you mean the Ironborn generally, then add Rodrik Harlaw, Botley, Aeron...

Not all noble, like the Ned, but not evil, like the Euron.

[Lee-Sensei]

Strange title but bare with me...

GRRM has specifically stated that there is nothing pure good or pure evil in his asoiaf.

Which means anything we perceive as pure evil isn't actually the case, white walkers being top of the list. We haven't read or seen enough about white walkers to understand where the good exists.

But, we have read and seen much of house greyjoy and I struggle to see ANYTHING good in them...

Some people might say that its all just an individuals POV on how he/she perceives the events.

But there is a general idea of what is good and what is evil in the real and fictional world.

To top this off and I know this is reallly skeptical since its show based but....the ironborn actually look physically evil compare their appearance to every other house even the boltons and the greyjoys just seem pure evil.

But GRRMs quote is interesting I suspect house greyjoy is going to take a complete role reversal in the last books.

They look physically evil? What does physically evil look like? Either way, they most of the Greyjoys have good points. Asha has several. Aeron seems to care about the opinions of the smallfolk. Victarion loved his family. Theon stopped his men from raping. Balon hates klinslaying. And Euron... well he's just an asshole. No arguments there.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Different way of life, I would say. We all have our own individual sense of morality and it's rarely exactly the same as someone else's. There's no harm in each of us seeing fault in their ethical reasoning. They're arrogant and believe wholeheartedly in the cause of fighting for the sake of their god, which for me makes them hard to like. Asha appears to have some qualities morally speaking, trying at least to modulate the growing domineering ambition of their people.

[Drogon'sWrath]

They're violent SOB's, but I can't reasonably say that every member of an entire culture (or family) is bad. Asha seems a good person, and the Reader has given me nothing but good impressions. Theon is a douche and not that smart, but I can't call him evil. Victarion has more bad than good, but still isn't wholly evil. The Damphair is a religious fanatic and Balon is a spiteful prick, and those are points against them. But the Damphair does seem to care about smallfolk and Balon's ultimate goal was to revitalize his culture. Granted, Balon went about it the wrong way, but it's not a bad goal. I'd say Aeron is more good than bad and Balon more bad than good. Euron is the closest to wholly evil, and he seems to be an extreme portrayal of their culture. The Greyjoys are like every other family: some are decent people, they all have flaws, and their are one or two black sheep.

[Pecan]

There isn't much to like about the Ironborn as a culture, that's for sure. The interesting question for me is why have they been tolerated so long? In nearly 300 years of Targaryen rule, they're been allowed to sit out there on those hideous islands and remain a menace to the rest of Westeros. At the very least, you'd think there would have been some sort of forced integration with the rest of Westerosi society.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I agree with the OP, to an extent. Yes, there are some decent Ironborn and all, but the overall culture is just evil and primitive in ways no other villanous houses are. Yes, the Lannisters have nasty monsters in their service, but those are exceptions. The smallfolk are always treated like shit, that's sure, but at least the Lannisters, Tyrells, Boltons, etc, take hostages. The Ironborn kill and take thralls and saltwives. That's the difference.

[Ruthven]

There isn't much to like about the Ironborn as a culture, that's for sure. The interesting question for me is why have they been tolerated so long? In nearly 300 years of Targaryen rule, they're been allowed to sit out there on those hideous islands and remain a menace to the rest of Westeros. At the very least, you'd think there would have been some sort of forced integration with the rest of Westerosi society.

Maybe because forced integration is more unlikeable than the current ironborn culture?

Also - would you rather have a bunch of spiteful bastards away from the mainland, in a kind of Alcatraz-colony, or apparently integrated with society, ready to rise up from within when ever they could?

[Hath4]

I agree with the OP, to an extent. Yes, there are some decent Ironborn and all, but the overall culture is just evil and primitive in ways no other villanous houses are. Yes, the Lannisters have nasty monsters in their service, but those are exceptions. The smallfolk are always treated like shit, that's sure, but at least the Lannisters, Tyrells, Boltons, etc, take hostages. The Ironborn kill and take thralls and saltwives. That's the difference.

the boltons are way more evil than the ironborn, sure roose may be a strategist but he is still evil, and he allows ramsay to go around doing stuff that even the most hardened ironborn would find offensive.

[Good Guy Garlan]

the boltons are way more evil than the ironborn, sure roose may be a strategist but he is still evil, and he allows ramsay to go around doing stuff that even the most hardened ironborn would find offensive.

Well, you're right, yes, the Boltons are worse, but that's mainly on account of Ramsay and his hobbies, so it's more of an isolated ocurrence

[QueenSansaLannister]

They look physically evil? What does physically evil look like? Either way, they most of the Greyjoys have good points. Asha has several. Aeron seems to care about the opinions of the smallfolk. Victarion loved his family. Theon stopped his men from raping. Balon hates klinslaying. And Euron... well he's just an asshole. No arguments there.

Couldn't agree with this more. And I want to add this for emphasis: ASHA GREYJOY. She alone disproves this IMO

[Kharn]

Isn't Asha a captain of a ship called the sea bitch that reaves rapes and pillages all along the coast ?

She is ironborn.

"We do not sow" - The very house motto is 'evil'.

And I still am not convinced by any of the above.

[Darksnider05]

They're violent SOB's, but I can't reasonably say that every member of an entire culture (or family) is bad. Asha seems a good person, and the Reader has given me nothing but good impressions. Theon is a douche and not that smart, but I can't call him evil. Victarion has more bad than good, but still isn't wholly evil. The Damphair is a religious fanatic and Balon is a spiteful prick, and those are points against them. But the Damphair does seem to care about smallfolk and Balon's ultimate goal was to revitalize his culture. Granted, Balon went about it the wrong way, but it's not a bad goal. I'd say Aeron is more good than bad and Balon more bad than good. Euron is the closest to wholly evil, and he seems to be an extreme portrayal of their culture. The Greyjoys are like every other family: some are decent people, they all have flaws, and their are one or two black sheep.

Theon had children murdered and burned he's evil and probably his own sons as well. Which just makes it amusing to me.

[Ser Creighton]

They look physically evil? What does physically evil look like?

It looks a lot like Taylor Swift.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It looks a lot like Taylor Swift.

You mean because of this?

[Ser Creighton]

One thing about Martins good and evil comment, he is just copying life, nobody is pure good or evil in the real world either. You make a bad choice you think a bad thought and you are no longer pure good. That's why he says things like Gregor is not pure evil he likes puppies. He is mostly a really bad person. He is just saying everything is not black and white people make choices some good and some bad, but there are good and bad people out there. Being grey just makes the characters more believable.

[Ser Creighton]

You mean because of this?

Nightmares Jon, I am going to have nightmares. So this is why they call you Jon of the "Evil" Dead, I thought it was just a clever play on Jon maybe being dead and the title of the Evil Dead series. But I was wrong wasn't I?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Nightmares Jon, I am going to have nightmares. So this is why they call you Jon of the "Evil" Dead, I thought it was just a clever play on Jon maybe being dead and the title of the Evil Dead series. But I was wrong wasn't I?

You totally were. You're more than welcome to come with me and Taylor to our "Antichrist Baby Shower"

[Drogon'sWrath]

Theon had children murdered and burned he's evil and probably his own sons as well. Which just makes it amusing to me.

I'm not convinced he would have let it be done were Ramsay not there. I don't think he would have had the balls to go through with it otherwise. Not that it excuses him standing by and letting it happen.

Theon desperately wanted daddy's approval, and thought taking Winterfell would cement it and thought he would show himself strong by "killing" an escaped Bran and Rickon. He wanted to please his father so much that he was willing to do whatever he thought would grant him his father's favor, not seeing that his father was a prick who had no love or respect for his only living son. IIRC, he reflected on what he had done, thinking his father would be proud of him for killing Ned Stark's whelps. He was misguided. Again, that doesn't excuse child murder, and the deed itself is terrible. I want him to face justice for the act, though what he got from Ramsay is overkill, imo, especially since Ramsay was a big part of the murders himself. My point is that Theon isn't wholly evil. He's pitiful, even before becoming Ramsay's plaything. He's unintelligent. He's desperate for his father's love and approval. He's a bit of a douche. But he's not wholly evil. Still not a good guy, but there's enough good in him to keep me from calling him evil.

Now, none of this is to say I particularly like Theon. He never came across as pleasant even in GOT. But he also never did anything truly evil until he had the kids killed. And given his reasoning behind it, I can't call him evil. I'd agree that he's got more bad than good in him, but still not enough bad to call evil.

Now, if you want evil, look to Qyburn and Ramsay and Joffrey among others.

[willofDorne]

Yeah, the Ironborn scum, perhaps little better than Wildlings because all they do is raid, pillage and rape. But... as the Greyjoy words suggest, "We do not sow," there may be a reason for this. Harrenhal was on the day it was built, when the final brick was placed, the greatest castle in the land. And Aegon burned it to the ground on that very day. For whatever reason, the Ironborn felt the dragon's wroth worse than any other in the Kingdoms. For this, I'd suggest they have a bit of a complex. "We do not sow" could simply mean, why should we try, when a dragon can ruin everything?

In comparison, Pike doesn't look so nice. It's defensible, but a castle on an island isn't exactly a convenient. You can't really hold court or become a liege lord quite as easily when nobody can get to your castle without a ship, etc. Simply put, they're permanently crippled and not likely to ever regain the status they might have had, had they managed to keep that castle.

Thank goodness Aegon only burnt that one castle to the ground, but it's not fair when tens of thousands died in Dorne, and Aegon never thought to sack that city. But for some reason, making an example of Harrenhal seemed important to them. Not cool... and is a Kracken real? Or an imagined creature because of a dragon inferiority complex?