calo760 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Most Westerosi follow the law that when the Lord of a castle dies his castles, land, army, and wealth passes to the oldest male son, or oldest brother if they don't have a son. A female only becomes heir if there are no men in the family left to be the heir. However, in Dornish law they do not discriminate gender. In Dorne, the heir is the oldest child, male or female (or to the oldest sibling if there are no children). Also, Balon Greyjoy wants his daughter Asha to be his heir to the Seastone Chair when he passes, and not to his son or any of his brothers. Stannis Baratheon also commands that if he falls in battle that his daughter Shireen will be his heir and to continue fighting to put her on the Iron Throne. Was the law of heir different in the past, accepting females as legitimate heirs? Or has there always been that discrimination? Stannis has no brothers, nor sons.. by common Westerosi law it would pass to a distant male cousin or uncle.. There has never been a female ruler of the 7 Kingdoms. Shireen would be the first. And Stannis, being the stickler for the law that he is, wouldn't just break protocol like that unless he believes that it is truly just.. or he totally doesn't give a damn anymore and just wants to finish the work that he started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 The heir law is actually supposed to be sons before daughters. Daughters before uncles. Before Edmure was born Cat was being groomed as heir with the Blackfish still alive. Who rules involves more the family and people than inheritance law. Some actually follow it some don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Westerosi law dictates daughter before uncle. It's why Cersei is Lady of CR, and Kevan is not Lord. It's also why Stannis promised to make Renly his heir, signifying that he already wasn't. Only the Targaryens practiced males before all else (after the Dance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Daughters come before uncles in Westerosi inheritance law, or at least that's the case in the North, as Jon explained in one of his chapters in A Dance with Dragons. The Targaryen inheritance law is any male before any female, though Robert or Stannis surely aren't considered serious Targaryen heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Daughters come before uncles in Westerosi inheritance law, or at least that's the case in the North, as Jon explained in one of his chapters in A Dance with Dragons. The Targaryen inheritance law is any male before any female, though Robert or Stannis surely aren't considered serious Targaryen heirs. It does seem like the Stark family are one of those families who don't really family Westerosi inheritance laws though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximilian Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Andals (and possibly First Men) traditonally have agnatic-cognatic succession, meaning that males come before females, but daughters still before uncles. (Oldest son inherits, daughters only if there are no trueborn sons) In Dorne they use cognatic succession, meaning that females and males have equal rights (The oldest inherits regardless of gender). Iirc, Aegon II established agnatic succession for the House Targaryen after the Dance. This means that only males can inherit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calo760 Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 The Targaryen inheritance law is any male before any female, though Robert or Stannis surely aren't considered serious Targaryen heirs. True lol ..because they have only been related for 1,000 years! ...asshole Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 True lol ..because they have only been related for 1,000 years! ...asshole Targaryens. Stannis and Robert had Targaryen grandmother... Hardly 1000 years. Rhaegar even called Robert a cousin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Only the Targaryens practiced males before all else (after the Dance). I might be wrong, but I don't think that's ever actually established anywhere. It's one of those things that was on the wiki for so long that everyone just believes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I might be wrong, but I don't think that's ever actually established anywhere. It's one of those things that was on the wiki for so long that everyone just believes it. Isn't it established in either one of the books, or one of the novels? I thought it was decided after the Dance of the Dragons, when Rhaenya got eaten by that dragon, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I might be wrong, but I don't think that's ever actually established anywhere. It's one of those things that was on the wiki for so long that everyone just believes it. Viserys II inherited the throne from his nephews, though Baelor and Daeron had three sisters. Now, that's not be all end all evidence, but it shows that uncles have inherited over daughters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Isn't it established in either one of the books, or one of the novels? I thought it was decided after the Dance of the Dragons, when Rhaenya got eaten by that dragon, you know. Well Aegon declared that Rhaenyra was no true queen. There's no mention in any of the books that the Targaryens changed their policies to agnatic primogeniture after the dance. I suppose it could be mentioned in an obscure SSM, or the official app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I might be wrong, but I don't think that's ever actually established anywhere. It's one of those things that was on the wiki for so long that everyone just believes it. Well, the Damphair has similar ideas about the Seastone Chair. But he's going against current Ironborn law either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Viserys II inherited the throne from his nephews, though Baelor and Daeron had three sisters. Now, that's not be all end all evidence, but it shows that uncles have inherited over daughters. Well Maegor inherited the throne instead of any of Aeny's children, that doesn't mean there was some official policy change. Dude was just being a dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Well Aegon declared that Rhaenyra was no true queen. There's no mention in any of the books that the Targaryens changed their policies to agnatic primogeniture after the dance. I suppose it could be mentioned in an obscure SSM, or the official app. Just three instances where pure agnatic primogeniture applied and zero for anything resembling cognatic mixtures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l3ol3o Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I might be wrong, but I don't think that's ever actually established anywhere. It's one of those things that was on the wiki for so long that everyone just believes it. I know the TV show isn't cannon but didn't they TV show also confirm this? Remember the scene where Sansa was in the throne room with her Septa? She was nervous about having all girls with Joffrey and asked what would happen? The Septa replied something along the lines of "Well if you only have girls I suppose the throne was pass to King Joffreys little brother" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Just three instances where pure agnatic primogeniture applied and zero for anything resembling cognatic mixtures. It seems to me the official policy is something like "if the succession is unclear, make a mad grab for power. If you don't have the support, call a Great Council." I'm not sure what three instances you're referring to. The one Mr. Bell mentions came down to Viserys II, who had been effectively ruling ruling for years or one of three girls who spent most of their lives confined to the maidenvault. Who was going to back their claim? I know the TV show isn't cannon but didn't they TV show also confirm this? Remember the scene where Sansa was in the throne room with her Septa? She was nervous about having all girls with Joffrey and asked what would happen? The Septa replied something along the lines of "Well if you only have girls I suppose the throne was pass to King Joffreys little brother" Yeah it's not canon. It's outright wrong about a lot of the historical stuff (the reason Robert's stag is crowned, Jaehaerys II not existing, that king they made up this past season when Tywin was lecturing Tommen.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Malenkirk Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Westeros doesn't seem to have much in the way of law; they have traditions and customs that bends the way the powerful wants it to. There doesn't seem to be a unified criminal and civil code written down anywhere and I don't remember any Maester forging a link in Law. Each kingdoms have subtly (or not so subtly) different sets of traditions and customs and they deal with each other as we see in the saga; with great difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 It seems to me the official policy is something like "if the succession is unclear, make a mad grab for power. If you don't have the support, call a Great Council." I'm not sure what three instances you're referring to. The one Mr. Bell mentions came down to Viserys II, who had been effectively ruling ruling for years or one of three girls who spent most of their lives confined to the maidenvault. Who was going to back their claim? Well, sort of. It's more like "look at every precedent in the past and try the best fit, if that doesn't work out, use swords to make a new ". Just like almost every law before the Code Napoleon was made. Aegon III before the daughter of Aegon III, Viserys II before the sisters of Baelor the Befuddled and the whole Maekar/Egg/whatever affair, though that's the least convincing one. Every one a precedent for the "no girls" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I might be wrong, but I don't think that's ever actually established anywhere. It's one of those things that was on the wiki for so long that everyone just believes it. It was established here http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232/ I told George that when he changed Viserys I from a son to a brother he created an error in that Baelor's sisters did not inherit the throne after him, George replied that women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD. Something interesting and neatly explains Daena and the rest not becoming queen. There's also the fact Prince Daeron's daughter was passed over and there has never been a ruling Targaryen queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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