Behind blue eyes

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So.... the only way to have any resolution here in your mind is to have GRRM confirm it? Fair enough. We shall wait for the next book...

In the mean time. WHERE DID VAL FIND A CHANGE OF CLOTHES?!!!!!!!!! And more importantly, was it White? Or Winter White?! (I lived with women for long enough, no I wouldn't find a difference on my own).

Ha ha ha! No. The only way is to have some clues from the text that shows that way. Is there any evidence, clues or foreshadowing for what you claim? For example GRRM never stated R+L=J but there is way too many clues, evidence and foreshadowings. What I see in this thread is all yada yada yada because I like that, without any actual clue or evidence or text proof.

The clothes she was wearing was gift from Dalla. Do you really believe that is so difficult to be found especially since Tormund belonged to Mance's forces? Ok, let's take a wild guess. How about Tormund had returned to the place they used to stay and Val who went there found her belongings. Or even the fact that she had took them with her or even someone from the Tormund's forces had them and gave them back to her.

[Snow Dottir]

Why were they a gift?

was it Vals birthday or somthing???

The " forshadowing and evidences and text" make these items even more important BECAUSE they were a gift.

Why even include they were a "gift" if they weren't significant in some way?

The "forshadowing and evidences and text" support this just as strongly or even more so than "Jon and Val together 4-eva"

Sorry, this isn't young adult fiction.

HAR!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why were they a gift?

Because the text said so. Val said that Dalla gave her the clothes. The end.

But this is just perfect:

We're told that Val is Dalla's sister , but we don't know if she's a sister by blood , or by vocation. The clothes given to Val by Dalla have a definite ceremonial feel to them. They would be impractical in day to day life ... Fine woven , all white ( like a weirwood ) ... the weirwood pin, which we don't see her wearing at any other time( more than simply a piece of jewelry ?) , the bone knife ( Why bone , when metal would probably be available to her ? Is it more than a utility knife? ). Though she jokes with Jon about not wanting her clothes to get stained, this could be for more important reasons than a woman just not wanting a smudge on her party dress . The garments may be much more than just a nice prezzie from sis - perhaps a mark of Val's attaining some level of proficiency as a priestess , or a rich reward for some priestly service rendered.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66294-tormund-and-val-;-jons-intermediaries-to-the-old-gods/?p=3190386

However I have to notice that you still have failed to answer to my question.

[Snow Dottir]

Thanks for providing "proofs" as to were you're getting all your opinions from.

Even more "proofs" that Vals clothing (and acessories) are ceremonial.

Thank you for helping keep the thread on topic!

The link you offered AGAIN is great! Much deeper and more thought out than simply shipping John and Val.

It also goes into the plethora of hints as to Val being MUCH more than just another pretty face and more specifically a priestess of some kind.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Thanks for providing "proofs" as to were you're getting all your opinions from.

Even more "proofs" that Vals clothing (and acessories) are ceremonial.

Thank you for helping keep the thread on topic!

The link you offered AGAIN is great! Much deeper and more thought out than simply shipping John and Val.

It also goes into the plethora of hints as to Val being MUCH more than just another pretty face and more specifically a priestess of some kind.

Why do I even bother?

The dress was given to Val by Dalla that is a fact from the text. We don't know why tho.

As for shipping Jon and Val that is silly. It's not called shipping is called looking at the foreshadowings, the clues and the evidences. See the difference?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

There's definitely more to Val than meets the eye. I just really doubt she serves no purpose in the story other than as a hot blonde warrior woman. That's boring. I tend to take her fear of Shireen and greyscale seriously and I also agree with the OP that it's suspicious that Val feels no fear going back beyond the Wall.

Jon's Queen Consort, on 12 Jul 2014 - 2:08 PM, said:

She uses the word “ghost” which means that she and the rest of the wildlings know who and what they have to fight so it isn’t unknown to them what they will meet.

This doesn't fully explain it. She isn't afraid but the other wildlings are. Mance organized an army because he was scared. In ADWD Tormund seemed pretty freaked out. A lot of wildlings were terrified enough to follow a woods witch to Hardhome. Val is the exception among wildlings in being unafraid of the north in ADWD. Not the rule. The explanation that she isn't afraid because she knows the woods well doesn't quite hold water.

Scúrdryhtdðm, on 12 Jul 2014 - 1:47 PM, said:

The Others do not want the death of all humans--> 1) Crastor makes sacrifices to the Others and if they wanted him dead they could have long ago done that. 2) The Night's King was decidedly human but was making sacrifices to the Others for power(and love I guess). 3) At White Tree other dark sacrifices were made to the gods (not clear which ones to). Doesn't seem all bad to me.

If you are going to say that the Others were driving the Wildings South and they were fearing for death, yes...partially. It seems to me that they were herding the Wildings South. The Wall is warded against them and how do you get around that? Drive a force that is not warded against to the Wall (my own little idea here admittedly).

Sacrifices to the Others and the Old Gods do not seem all that different in basic nature. Val says the woods hold no shadows for her, perhaps she has enough knowledge of the other (get it, the Other) half of the coin to know what customs to oblige in order to not be killed by the Others. Kind of like knowing the procession for different kind of churches/customs. I'm not going to send a woman into Saudi Arabia wearing a bikini (extreme example but it conveys the point). Perhaps she just knows what to do--it doesn't mean she has adopted it.

I'm thinking a realistic grasp of the situation. If they make a move against Mel essentially they are challenging the legitimacy of Stannis. You do that and Stannis comes down on you (we all know that is something no sane person wants to have happen) and very likely the Night's Watch as well. It is easier to bear an insult for a time than die and not be able to fight another day.

If there are spelling mistakes I apologize. It happens.

The Others are definitely more complicated than just monsters who want to kill, kill, kill. This isn't a cheesy zombie story. I agree that they're trying to herd people south. The Fist was the only time they launched a big attack. The rest of the time they're picking off people on the fringes. I have some other theories but am not sure if this is the best place for them.

Regarding Others being of the Old Gods: I don't see anything in the text to falsify this notion. We don't know much about them yet. We're all just speculating here. I'm not ready to say I definitely think they are of the Old Gods but I can't rule out.

Just because the Others and Old Gods fought doesn't mean the Others can't be of them. It could be a Paradise Lost kind of situation. The angels were of God and they still fought him. Again, total speculation. But it isn't ridiculous IMO.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There's definitely more to Val than meets the eye. I just really doubt she serves no purpose in the story other than as a hot blonde warrior woman. That's boring. I tend to take her fear of Shireen and greyscale seriously and I also agree with the OP that it's suspicious that Val feels no fear going back beyond the Wall.

This doesn't fully explain it. She isn't afraid but the other wildlings are. Mance organized an army because he was scared. In ADWD Tormund seemed pretty freaked out. A lot of wildlings were terrified enough to follow a woods witch to Hardhome. Val is the exception among wildlings in being unafraid of the north in ADWD. Not the rule. The explanation that she isn't afraid because she knows the woods well doesn't quite hold water.

I have to disagree. I believe that she meant that she knew what was there not that she wasn't scared. And even if she is a priestess she is a priestess of those who had fought and won the war against the Others so they and she of course knows how to fight them.

Tormund seemed freaked out because his son turned into a wight.

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

Tormund seemed freaked out because his son turned into a wight.

What, you wouldn't be freaked out?

And guys, there is only one reasonable conclusion.

Val is a secret Targaryen who is covertly corresponding with Benjen Stark who happened to learn the magics of the CotF and originally came from Greywater Watch. True Story! Matter of fact she is the secret daughter Bloodraven had with a Wilding woman!

Couldn't resist.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What, you wouldn't be freaked out?

And guys, there is only one reasonable conclusion.

Val is a secret Targaryen who is covertly corresponding with Benjen Stark who happened to learn the magics of the CotF and originally came from Greywater Watch. True Story!

Couldn't resist.

Anyone would be freaked out by that. What I meant was that Tormund hadn't freaked out because of the Others but because his son became a wight.

Secret Targ? No. Secret Northern high born? Yes.

[Snow Dottir]

Val is a secret Targaryen who is covertly corresponding with Benjen Stark who happened to learn the magics of the CotF and originally came from Greywater Watch. True Story! Matter of fact she is the secret daughter Bloodraven had with a Wilding woman!

Couldn't resist.

And then she married Jon Snow and lived happily ever after as the one true queen !

"Evidences" point to yes!!!

All joking aside. I'm astounded that some people can't make a connection between the others and the "great other". Furthermore it's clear that the old gods that are worshipped in the north are part of a dualism that is in a constant struggle for Balance.

Actually, I'm gonna actually take a risk and say most adults with average comprehension abilities can see this.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

"Evidences" point to yes!!!

Since you seemed to disagree, and you have any right to do do, can you prove the theory wrong?

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

We found the third head of the Dragon!

Back onto topic...

Val does seem important and has gotten way more attention that should be given to something inconsequential. I think the only Wilding I really like more is Tormund, mostly because she throws out some entertaining banter in dialogue.

Jon's repeated refusals (by his or others helping his decision [think riding South to join Robb]) of taking a Stark name or breaking his vows (Ygritte was a necessity in order to fulfill his vows) I don't believe there will be any true Queen for Jon.

The only way out of this I can find, while maintaining his vows are having a united realm of men, and serving the queen of the realms of men. Logic holds. Then, technically, he could act at the forefront of all actions for the realms of men!

Not sure if this is the right place for it, but there is some speculation that the Night's Watch oath was originally different. The version Sam says at the Night Fort gate is absent the, "take no lands, title ect... no wife" (sorry, don't have the book in front of me and don't feel like looking it up exactly) that the new version has. Perhaps it isn't as...restrictive.

If you follow the Jon is the one to bring balance, it would make sense to have a priestess of the Ice and a priestess of the Fire on either side. That's just good math!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If you follow the Jon is the one to bring balance, it would make sense to have a priestess of the Ice and a priestess of the Fire on either side. That's just good math!

I will ask it again; What makes you believe that the Old Gods=Ice?

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

I will ask it again; What makes you believe that the Old Gods=Ice?

Obvious Troll is Obvious.

"Beyond the Wall, they are the only gods." Osha to Bran Stark. If Crastor is a godly man and he makes tributes to them (not excluding the Night's King or other practitioners or course) that would lead one to assume, yup, they are of the same origin as the Others.

"There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. 'Never fear the darkness, Bran.' The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rusting of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "the strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother''s milk. Darkness will make you strong." BR to Bran. Using this, Darkness will make you strong. Who else is associated with darkness? The Great Other via the Long Night. What is he associated with? Cold as well as Darkness.

All forces of darkness, cold, and death are believed to be only servants to the Great Other via Mellisandre. If Bran is a servant of the darkness and he is almost literally an Old God, or a representative therein, they are one in the same.

According to Mellisandre sleep is "a little death, dreams and whisperings of the Other," What do the Old Gods speak through? Greendreams. The Greenseers see their visions through little deaths. Death, old gods, the Great Other, Ice....

Seems pretty on point to me.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

And then she married Jon Snow and lived happily ever after as the one true queen !

"Evidences" point to yes!!!

All joking aside. I'm astounded that some people can't make a connection between the others and the "great other". Furthermore it's clear that the old gods that are worshipped in the north are part of a dualism that is in a constant struggle for Balance.

Actually, I'm gonna actually take a risk and say most adults with average comprehension abilities can see this.

That would be easier if we actually knew for certain that there is a Great Other. I'm inclined to believe there is, but I don't take Mel's word for it on anything, and she's the only one who has mentioned The Great Other. If there is one, it's not likely to be Bloodraven, just as the grey girl on the dying horse was not Arya.

Some people have suggested that TGO is Night's Queen and there's a kind of queen bee thing going on where there's only one female Other at a time. I don't really buy that. I see TGO as a general or a king, just like the humans have down south of the Wall. The Others aren't human but they do have a culture.

Scurdryhtdom, don't rely too much on what Mel. It's not just greenseers who speak to people through dreams. Quaithe speaks to Daenerys that way too, and so far as we know she's not a greenseer.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

You call me a troll but you seem unable to answer me.

Osha is talking about the Old Gods but the last time I checked she was a human and not an Other to be able to know about their gods.

Because the cave wasn't a dark cave? Because the roots are growing in the dark? Or because when Bran was endangered by the wights the COFTs and BR saved him? Hmm...

So you believe that R'hllor is the good one? :lmao: :rofl: :lmao: Good one! :thumbsup:

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

You call me a troll but you seem unable to answer me.

Osha is talking about the Old Gods but the last time I checked she was a human and not an Other to be able to know about their gods.

Because the cave wasn't a dark cave? Because the roots are growing in the dark? Or because when Bran was endangered by the wights the COFTs and BR saved him? Hmm...

So you believe that R'hllor is the good one? :lmao: :rofl: :lmao: Good one! :thumbsup:

I never, ever said R'hllor is a good one. Now you're just putting words in my mouth. There were zero denouements of good or evil in my post.

I've provided you textual evidence for thinking a certain way and you are unable to come back with anything other than saying I didn't answer--which I did. This is reaching the point of absurdity that unless GRRM creates a press announcement you are unwilling to take intellectual leaps of your own.

snip

Not taking it too seriously, however she is correct in generalities. Not completely wrong. Obviously it should be tempered, however it doesn't mean it should be disregarded. I agree that there is some sort of leader with a culture--its more me trying to logically establish a link between the Others and the Old Gods, or as the Consort said Ice.

Osha is a Wilding. Are you saying the Wildings don't know about the existence of the Others? Really?

At this point not only are you logically inconsistent and not backing up your argument with anything textual you are intentionally misrepresenting and falsifying the statements of Others to somehow dilute the meaning. Yes, you are 11,456 posts in, but that doesn't mean that you have the correct answer. None of us have the correct answer. If you would like something where all the text is not open for interpretation and straightforward please look here. It should be helpful.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I never, ever said R'hllor is a good one. Now you're just putting words in my mouth. There were zero denouements of good or evil in my post.

If you are going to refer to Mel's interpretation about good and evil like they are the absolute truth then you mean that R'hllor is the good guy.

I've provided you textual evidence for thinking a certain way and you are unable to come back with anything other than saying I didn't answer--which I did. This is reaching the point of absurdity that unless GRRM creates a press announcement you are unwilling to take intellectual leaps of your own.

I am sorry but Osha's comment that the Old Gods are the only gods beyond the wall is nothing. What you said about the dark like deleting what we see and as I said before if you refer to Mel like she is right about the great other, whice Mel however knows the Old Gods and never said anything about them being connected with the Others, you mean that R'hllor is the good guy.

I am done here. I see that no one wants to support his claim so I see no point of *discussing* here anymore.

[Snow Dottir]

If you follow the Jon is the one to bring balance, it would make sense to have a priestess of the Ice and a priestess of the Fire on either side. That's just good math!

Melissandre is up at the wall doing nothing but disturbing the balance, a balance that is already shaken.

Most people get the concept. Rhollor/Fire/Life/Dragons, Great other/Ice/Death/Others

This is the dual nature that we are working with.

anyone with average comprehension skills can see this (and do!)

Im not trying to kill anyones dreams , but you'd have to TRY not to see the connection there.

So is it so crazy that Val could be this counter balance to Mel......No not at all

[north of the wall]

I don't think the old gods = ice. They were all over Westeros before the Andals came. I think the old gods are nature and therefor balance. However by removing the weirwoods from almost everywhere but the north there is an imbalance. I also think if Mel is the red priestess and Val a white (ice) one then all this does is create further imbalances.

The OG's will need to be restored everywhere in Westeros if balance is to be seen IMO. And I think Jon will see this in some sense. I don't personally think saying Val is an Ice priestess is right but rather her wearing the white to allude to the OG is more correct. I do agree with JQC that OG =\= Ice magic