Behind blue eyes

[Snow Dottir]

I don't think the old gods = ice. They were all over Westeros before the Andals came. I think the old gods are nature and therefor balance. However by removing the weirwoods from almost everywhere but the north there is an imbalance. I also think if Mel is the red priestess and Val a white (ice) one then all this does is create further imbalances.

The OG's will need to be restored everywhere in Westeros if balance is to be seen IMO. And I think Jon will see this in some sense. I don't personally think saying Val is an Ice priestess is right but rather her wearing the white to allude to the OG is more correct. I do agree with JQC that OG =\= Ice magic

Most people get the concept. Rhollor/Fire/Life/Dragons, Great other/Ice/Death/Others

This is the dual nature that we are working with

Mel is chopping down weirwoods and burning people at the stake at the wall...would you say that's keeping a balance?

Even a rudimentary understanding of a duality would make it more clear. I can't be the only one to see this.

The WoW will clear it up for sure.

At this point what makes this so interesting is that we haven't seen much at all of the Old ways of the North but we're going to.

[north of the wall]

No I think its the complete opposite of balance. I except there is power and magic in fire as is ice. But the OG as far as I can tell have there power/magic in the weirwoods which are trees which is nature. Only reason for why I feel OGs as balance. I'm saying fire/ice magic and power is what has created the imbalances in westeros to begin with

[Snow Dottir]

No I think its the complete opposite of balance. I except there is power and magic in fire as is ice. But the OG as far as I can tell have there power/magic in the weirwoods which are trees which is nature. Only reason for why I feel OGs as balance. I'm saying fire/ice magic and power is what has created the imbalances in westeros to begin with

You may have mistaken what I said about Mel.

Nature holds literally all there is under the sun.

The series is called "a song of ICE and FIRE"

Instead of giving a seminar on the Duality of nature you can google it.

the Old Gods encompass this Duality....there will always be a struggle to keep it balanced.

[north of the wall]

You may have mistaken what I said about Mel.

Nature holds literally all there is under the sun.

The series is called "a song of ICE and FIRE"

Instead of giving a seminar on the Duality of nature you can google it.

the Old Gods encompass this Duality....there will always be a struggle to keep it balanced.

I think I'm more confused than ever as to what you expect the blues eyes/white clothes to mean since you seem to think the others are of the OGs and ice. The only logical end game I can see for a balanced world (which I suppose might not happen) is for fire and ice magics to leave/die out or work together in Westeros. Is Val important enough to contribute to then end game in some way in your theory?

(I don't think I need to google anything. Maybe I am not the best at articulating what I mean and we are just.confusing one another but I definately think what I am saying is correct in theory)

[Snow Dottir]

I think I'm more confused than ever as to what you expect the blues eyes/white clothes to mean since you seem to think the others are of the OGs and ice. The only logical end game I can see for a balanced world (which I suppose might not happen) is for fire and ice magics to leave/die out or work together in Westeros. Is Val important enough to contribute to then end game in some way in your theory?

Magic is going to stay, it's a magical world.

Val is absolutely important enough and everything that has been discussed thus far points to why/how

Now I think I'll start a thread called " dualities Vs. Pantheism how they can exist at once" or somthing

I DO think the others are of the Old Gods as I said (too many times) the Old Gods seem to represent the only duality present (r'holllor and the great other) The 7 are a pantheon.

Not for you but anyone who's struggling I googled Dualism.....

In theology, 'dualism' may also refer to 'duotheism', 'bitheism' or 'ditheism'. Although ditheism/bitheism imply moral dualism, they are not equivalent: ditheism/bitheism implies (at least) two gods, while moral dualism does not imply any -theism (theos = god) whatsoever.

Both 'bitheism' and 'ditheism' imply a belief in two equally powerful gods with complementary or antonymous properties. However, while bitheism implies harmony, ditheism implies rivalry and opposition, such as between good and evil, or bright and dark, or summer and winter. For example, a ditheistic system would be one in which one god is creative, the other is destructive (cf. theodicy). In the original conception of Zoroastrianism, for example, Ahura Mazda was the spirit of ultimate good, while Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) was the spirit of ultimate evil. (This Zoroastrian conception of polar opposition and conflict would later come to influence the development of Christianity as it elaborated upon the idea of the Devil as an ultimate source of evil opposed to the Christian God, an idea that was previously absent in Judaism.)^{[citation needed]}

[north of the wall]

Ok I'm gonna try to better explain my theory on the gods but since this is ultimately meant to be about Val I probably will skip over things that I feel aren't relevant.

I have never thought about the others being in a religious duelogy with the old gods (but now I understand why you think they are of them which makes much more sense than what I thought you meant prior) I thought of the old gods as just nature (much like how early uk thought of religion I was thinking celtic/gaulic and welsh mother of the panetos more) if that makes any sense. Or failing that; that they were no "real" old gods but just power from nature like the wargs and greenseers and maybe some other magic left the world when wierwoods were destroyed.

R'holler on the other hand is duelogist. Since The Great Other is satan to R'hollers god. However I I also see this as a man made religion which actually just uses magic and tricks (like Mel) but doesn't necessarily need any "real" gods to really work. (Can you honestly imaging R'hollor looking of Beric and saying "yes the ritual has been done and you are worthy of life again"?)

Val I see as a reminder that the old gods have importance in a battle against the others. A reminder nature is important, wargs and greenseers are important. Of course fire will be as well but Mel is already at the wall for that reminder. Maybe Val will heal/revive Jon (this is a hope though since we have already seen the res priests have the power to do this Mel could do it too) I'm not sure Val has any important role other than to appear as an opposite to Mel and to remind Jon/the reader that there is an old way and that old way has won the war of dawn before but I'd hope she does

[Snow Dottir]

(I don't think I need to google anything. Maybe I am not the best at articulating what I mean and we are just.confusing one another but I definately think what I am saying is correct in theory)

You know what?

Please never feel that way. I especially hope people who are interested in where the novels left off.

Especially if you love Val and her plotline at the wall which I do:) Obviously ;)

I really , really, really think things are about to get Great Other all over the place and all of westeros is gonna remember why the Old Gods are THE gods (but that's for the religion thread, theres an awesome one referenced in this thread about Val and Thorumund being intermediaries to the Gods that is really cool)

The confusion does not lie in the original post. It's someone trying to derail the conversation because they have a slightly similar thread.

If I sounded frustrated the frustration was not being directed at you at all. If you think so I apologize.

Please don't let anyones snarky comments keep you from posting. :worried:

[north of the wall]

Even if you were bring snarky with me that would have been fine because i did a poor job of explaining myself to begin with. I know the thread was derailed (by the religous side of things which is a shame) before I posted. Which is the main reason my first post was only about the OP to try to get it back on track. I agree or understand your points in OP it would seem we differ a little on the religions which is fine most people on the forum differ on these. I just didn't want you to think I was trying to derail your thread with my differings. Lol :)

[Snow Dottir]

Ok I'm gonna try to better explain my theory on the gods but since this is ultimately meant to be about Val I probably will skip over things that I feel aren't relevant.

I have never thought about the others being in a religious duelogy with the old gods (but now I understand why you think they are of them which makes much more sense than what I thought you meant prior) I thought of the old gods as just nature (much like how early uk thought of religion I was thinking celtic/gaulic and welsh mother of the panetos more) if that makes any sense. Or failing that; that they were no "real" old gods but just power from nature like the wargs and greenseers and maybe some other magic left the world when wierwoods were destroyed.

R'holler on the other hand is duelogist. Since The Great Other is satan to R'hollers god. However I I also see this as a man made religion which actually just uses magic and tricks (like Mel) but doesn't necessarily need any "real" gods to really work. (Can you honestly imaging R'hollor looking of Beric and saying "yes the ritual has been done and you are worthy of life again"?)

Val I see as a reminder that the old gods have importance in a battle against the others. A reminder nature is important, wargs and greenseers are important. Of course fire will be as well but Mel is already at the wall for that reminder. Maybe Val will heal/revive Jon (this is a hope though since we have already seen the res priests have the power to do this Mel could do it too) I'm not sure Val has any important role other than to appear as an opposite to Mel and to remind Jon/the reader that there is an old way and that old way has won the war of dawn before but I'd hope she does

Yes!!!!!

I'd like to have a new thread about all this religion, but yes...you know what I mean about "the old Gods" referring to the northern mythos. I will include the Others because we know they exist. So instead of saying "Others come from the old gods" we should be saying the Old Gods encompass everything, just like in nature.

We should just start saying everything came from the Old Gods (in the mind of a real northerner)....cuts out all the confusion.

we don't even know when say, Val or someone:) :) prays at a weirwood if she can have visions or anything kind of like Mel with the fire.

When Jon gets stabbed, the last thing he says is "Ghost" so it looks like he may warg Ghost.

This is where it will get tricky.

Maybe R'hollor won't be able to help him. His spirit will be in Ghost (Varamyrs chapter?)

Someone who knows about the weirwoods, the "rules" about warging,ect... may be able to.

Val and possibly "friends" can school everyone on the ways of the real North, pretty much like you said.

[bogdevil]

val killed a Balrog. It is known

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

I would like to clarify, because it seems to have been lost in translation that I am by no means insisting that the Old Gods and the Others are the same--only inferring that they are on the different end of the magical spectrum than R'hallor. Think like a number scale, 1 being Fire/Rhallor and 10 being Ice/the Others. I think the Old Gods are a seven (or at least 5 or greater) to the Others 10 on the scale.

I also would like to emphasize that this is all more exploring a thought process and I think (correct me if I'm wrong Snow Dottir) we're mostly looking for further the line of thought as an intellectual exercise rather than insisting that this is the only and correct answer.

[Snow Dottir]

I would like to clarify, because it seems to have been lost in translation that I am by no means insisting that the Old Gods and the Others are the same--only inferring that they are on the different end of the magical spectrum than R'hallor. Think like a number scale, 1 being Fire/Rhallor and 10 being Ice/the Others. I think the Old Gods are a seven (or at least 5 or greater) to the Others 10 on the scale.

I also would like to emphasize that this is all more exploring a thought process and I think (correct me if I'm wrong Snow Dottir) we're mostly looking for further the line of thought as an intellectual exercise rather than insisting that this is the only and correct answer.

I hear you.

None of us should ever have to say that again...haha

like my previous post, I'd rather just be brave, run with scissors and say The Old Gods are part of Everything in the mind of a Northerner.

Then the scale comes into it.

Yes, it's more interesting to talk about things we don't know for certain...If people won't post because they are afraid of being wrong that's not anything more than a review. Right?

[north of the wall]

Def agree and I appreciate the scale analogy (although I think a 5 would fit bettet with my thought process but I am probably wrong and appreciate everyone else opinions especially when they add something to what I already believe)

I am thinking a religion thread on this would be good. Is there one already?

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

Def agree and I appreciate the scale analogy (although I think a 5 would fit bettet with my thought process but I am probably wrong and appreciate everyone else opinions especially when they add something to what I already believe)

I am thinking a religion thread on this would be good. Is there one already?

You can't be wrong, we don't have all the variables!

Apologizing for the recap, but trying to get this back on track to some degree.

I'll hunt down one of the religion threads, there have been a few when I was lurking and if you get really bored, not to shamelessly plug them but... here they have about 5 hours of podcast discussion on religions alone in Planetos. Good background noise if you have something to do...or listen to while in your cubicle at work (not that I would ever do that of course...).

I'm pretty sure that Val came across something substantial when she went on her, well I want to call it ranging, in the North. Could she have offered the Others some kind of deal when above the Wall? They have to want something. Information? Completely just shooting in the dark here, but there is always something that one can trade for their life when you have a perspective/information that the other is lacking.

I'm pretty sure the white was just a recap on the reference to the Old Gods/Weirwoods in the same way that Ghost is white, rather than the wedding analogy. I don't remember the thread it was but I did like the idea that Jon perhaps 'stole' her when he guarded the tent while the Royal Army (all the others don't count) attacked the Wildings. It may very well have been the link that JQC inserted earlier, god knows I've read way too much stuff on this site.

The fact that Jon was stabbed outside the tower Val was in I think will play a large role in his fate. Maybe a cat (not Catelyn) fight to determine who will revive him with what power? Lol.

[raegal_targaryen]

Children of the forest represents: life and earth.

Rhllor aspect of fire. destruction and rebirth

White walker Aspect of ice: of undead and cold

The seven is the aspect of of all seven forms of humanity .

its all tied to each other aswell as the drowned god and the storm god. all are elements. with power

[raegal_targaryen]

I dont think jon is dead, just badly wounded.

And he will have some things to do before he dies.

[Snow Dottir]

Children of the forest represents: life and earth.

Rhllor aspect of fire. destruction and rebirth

White walker Aspect of ice: of undead and cold

Before anyone says anything please notice The usage of the word "aspect"

In that respect, this is why we connect these particular Others in this aspect to the North, because it's cold....some will even say they ARE the cold.

How could someone NOT connect them to the cold?

That being said... The Others are picking off people on their way to and from the wall

but not Val.

She's more than willing to go out on her own, not hesitant in the least and doesn' t even mention the others....

She doesn't mention the very thing that we have been led to believe are the most terrible creatures on the entire planet (I don't think they are but that's because I'm really a secret Other. That's not even what we call ourselves!) <~this is a jest...A JEST!

[Snow Dottir]

I dont think jon is dead, just badly wounded.

And he will have some things to do before he dies.

One of those things he'll have to do is figure out how to get out of Ghost.

Will Val simply be "jons true queen" or are things about to get :::cue xstina aguilerra::::: "Dirty!"

I seriously doubt she's disappearing from the story.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

One of those things he'll have to do is figure out how to get out of Ghost.

Will Val simply be "jons true queen" or are things about to get :::cue xstina aguilerra::::: "Dirty!"

I seriously doubt she's disappearing from the story.

You have missed the point. No one said that Val will only be Jon's Queen, that was you not the theory.

However you have failed to explain why Ice=Old Gods.

[raegal_targaryen]

You have missed the point. No one said that Val will only be Jon's Queen, that was you not the theory.

However you have failed to explain why Ice=Old Gods.

well they could be a faction or who knows of the old gods. And who are the old gods just the children of the forest and there greenseer. not likely gods as in several diffrent gods.