R+L=J v 87

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

:agree: A whole version of this thread (v.75 IIRC) was 'hijacked' the same way. The ignore button is the most effective solution. Now and then ;)

Where is the ignore button?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Where is the ignore button?

From dropdown menu below your name in top right corner, select mange ignore preferences

[Emerentiana_Zamora]

From dropdown menu below your name in top right corner, select mange ignore preferences

Thanks!

[stateofdissipation]

She [Arya] saw her father's face along the wall. Beside him hung her lady mother, and below them her three brothers in a row.

Arya mentions seeing her family, the Starks, in her dream. Odd that it is " three brothers:" Rickon, Robb and Bran, and not four, leaving out Jon, her favorite sibling. A hint that Jon's isn't Arya's brother.

It is also a hint that Arya has not had news pf Jon dying. She is seeing people she has heard were dead. It would also then hint that Sansa is not her sister.

[teej6]

Now it ends :)

Hear Hear!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Good catch ! Which chapter is that ?

But if Arya is thinking/dreaming of the members of her family that she thinks are dead, it's normal that Jon is not included.

ADwD 64 The Ugly Little Girl -

roughly 3/4 into the chapter.

[Leonardo Abreu]

Quote

Don't know if it has been mentioned before in the 86 previous threads, but somebody put this GRRM quote in the "Things never noticed" thread... do you think it was on purpose that he's chosen to pair the words Dany - her mother, Tyrion - his father, Jon/Ned, implying that Ned is not really his father?

[Ygrain]

Don't know if it has been mentioned before in the 86 previous threads, but somebody put this GRRM quote in the "Things never noticed" thread... do you think it was on purpose that he's chosen to pair the words Dany - her mother, Tyrion - his father, Jon/Ned, implying that Ned is not really his father?

If it wasn't intentional, it was a very telling slip of tongue :-)

[Ygritte]

Don't know if it has been mentioned before in the 86 previous threads, but somebody put this GRRM quote in the "Things never noticed" thread... do you think it was on purpose that he's chosen to pair the words Dany - her mother, Tyrion - his father, Jon/Ned, implying that Ned is not really his father?

Nice catch!

[BearQueen87]

If it wasn't intentional, it was a very telling slip of tongue :-)

Crafty George is Crafty.

:cheers:

[MtnLion]

I just find it inordinately anally-retentive to argue that The first duty is not the prime duty. :bs:

Yeah, prime numbers are not first numbers.

Prime rib is not first rib.

I think that all of the pontificating and legalistic turning relies upon a bevy of young law interns/students that have nothing better to do than troll. ;)

[Aeron_Damphair]

I just find it inordinately anally-retentive to argue that The first duty is not the prime duty. :bs:

Yeah, prime numbers are not first numbers.

Prime rib is not first rib.

I think that all of the pontificating and legalistic turning relies upon a bevy of young law interns/students that have nothing better to do than troll. ;)

Ygrain showed me the light and I can't be more pleased. I think our hero is indeed a troll. Endless obscurantism and completely feigned obliviousness to context. As one accumulates dozens of posts in a single thread, shorthand becomes necessary and to satisfy the legalistic heckling of said hero would be to write a novel for every submission, repeating everything one had said previously in each subsequent post so as not to get called out on some ridiculously irrelevant and miniscule apparent misuse of a common euphemism for the intended principle. Freedom is exhilarating.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ygrain showed me the light and I can't be more pleased. I think our hero is indeed a troll. Endless obscurantism and completely feigned obliviousness to context. As one accumulates dozens of posts in a single thread, shorthand becomes necessary and to satisfy the legalistic heckling of said hero would be to write a novel for every submission, repeating everything one had said previously in each subsequent post so as not to get called out on some ridiculously irrelevant and miniscule apparent misuse of a common euphemism for the intended principle. Freedom is exhilarating.

While I agree with this sentiment (and I got sucked in as much or probably more than anyone), what really made me assume our "hero" was for real is that this individual has over 1,000 posts. I am much quicker to end a debate with a n00b after evidence of being too dense to debate, but I try to give posters with extensive numbers of posts the benefit of the doubt. I still cannot decide for sure whether the posts were genuine or trolling (but leaning toward trolling).

[BearQueen87]

While I agree with this sentiment (and I got sucked in as much or probably more than anyone), what really made me assume our "hero" was for real is that this individual has over 1,000 posts. I am much quicker to end a debate with a n00b after evidence of being too dense to debate, but I try to give posters with extensive numbers of posts the benefit of the doubt. I still cannot decide for sure whether the posts were genuine or trolling (but leaning toward trolling).

I had the same mindset as you. And then it just became increasingly tiring.

[stateofdissipation]

I just find it inordinately anally-retentive to argue that The first duty is not the prime duty. :bs:

Yeah, prime numbers are not first numbers.

Prime rib is not first rib.

I think that all of the pontificating and legalistic turning relies upon a bevy of young law interns/students that have nothing better to do than troll. ;)

If Prime and First are the same i do apologize for quibbling....

There is one question though

if you have a pair of socks and you put them only to find they are too small, if you put the right sock on your left foot and the left sock on your right foot do they get bigger or smaller?

If changing it makes no difference, why do you do it. Is the P key easier to strike than the F key? They both have 5 letters... so you can't call it a time saver. Was it a typo on everything but the R?

Defense of the term and calling opposition of it pontificating and legalistic kind of rules out it being an honest mistake.

Star Trek--- Prime directive.

Is breaking it a big deal---- yes

Figt club--- the First rule

is breaking it a big deal---- no

Prime lends importance that is key to the argument...First (as it was written) does not.

I am not the one that has just asserted that.... i choose to differ.... it makes no difference.... That is neither a pontificating nor legalistic turn, it is citing a glaring contradiction. Pretty much anybody out of kindergarten and this side of the grave can spot it....it is not limited to law students/interns... it includes busboys and construction workers..

[IceFire125]

If Prime and First are the same i do apologize for quibbling....

There is one question though

if you have a pair of socks and you put them only to find they are too small, if you put the right sock on your left foot and the left sock on your right foot do they get bigger or smaller?

If changing it makes no difference, why do you do it. Is the P key easier to strike than the F key? They both have 5 letters... so you can't call it a time saver. Was it a typo on everything but the R?

Defense of the term and calling opposition of it pontificating and legalistic kind of rules out it being an honest mistake.

Star Trek--- Prime directive.

Is breaking it a big deal---- yes

Figt club--- the First rule

is breaking it a big deal---- no

Prime lends importance that is key to the argument...First (as it was written) does not.

I am not the one that has just asserted that.... i choose to differ.... it makes no difference.... That is neither a pontificating nor legalistic turn, it is citing a glaring contradiction. Pretty much anybody out of kindergarten and this side of the grave can spot it....it is not limited to law students/interns... it includes busboys and construction workers..

???

State, if you don't believe Jon is legitimate, you have your right to believe that. We're not excluding you out of the R+L=J community, well not sure about the others, but I don't. :)

Some of us here, including me, personally, believe that Jon is legitimate. I hope you give us due credit in our beliefs of taking that faith, as you take the faith of Jon not being legitimate.

You believe that 3KGs at TOJ were not guarding the king/heir to the throne, while some of us here believe that they did fulfill their vow as kingsguard.

[Ygritte]

Here's a scene that caught my eye as I'm rereading. This is a stretch and I freely admit it. :)

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."

I've seen this interpreted as symbolizing dead Drogo, and I think that's a valid guess too. But here's what's sticking with me:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

[IceFire125]

Here's a scene that caught my eye as I'm rereading. This is a stretch and I freely admit it. :)

I've seen this interpreted as symbolizing dead Drogo, and I think that's a valid guess too. But here's what's sticking with me:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Reminds me of this:

Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.

A stone turned under her foot. She stumbled to one knee and cried out in pain

[...]

She fumbled in the water, found a stone the size of her fist, pulled it from the mud. It was a poor weapon but better than an empty hand. From the corner of her eye Dany saw the grass move again, off to her right. The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her.

Later it was Drogon that showed up and the Dothraki grass bowed down to him. I'm of the opinion that Drogon represents Jon, the Dragon. As was the stone that she tripped on, that represents a hidden someone/something. Jon is the hidden dragon, the King, that she will bend the knee to.

[BearQueen87]

Here's a scene that caught my eye as I'm rereading. This is a stretch and I freely admit it. :)

I've seen this interpreted as symbolizing dead Drogo, and I think that's a valid guess too. But here's what's sticking with me:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Interesting. Know what it remind me of? The statue in rememberance of Tristifer in Oldstones. The wiki describes it as:

The king’s hands are folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lies upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with the runes that told its name and history, but the runes have been worn away. The stone itself is cracked and crumbling at the corners and discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses creep up over the king’s feet almost to his chest.

There's a lot of Lyanna/Rhaegar parallels there--the warhammer (of Robert); the wild roses up to his chest (where the heart is); and linchen and moss are similar. And the entire scene with Cat and Robb is about Jon and making him legit.

I don't think you're making a stretch at all. I think they're working on a similar level.

[Ygritte]

Yup! I'd seen some analysis of the Oldstones tomb recently and I think it added to my sense that the missing sphinx king was significant.

And of course a sphinx is a mystery too. ;)