The Wiki-Timeline Project [Calculations]

[The Wondering Wolf]

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Maege's youngest daughter is 10 years old. After about the age of 50, after menopause has taken place, women can no longer give birth. This shows that when Lyanna Mormont (aged 10 in 300 AC, born in 289-291 AC) was born, Maege was not yet 50. If Lyanna was born as the last child Maege could possibly have birthed, Maege would have been born around 50 years prior, around 239-241 AC. This is the earliest Maege could have been born.

In some cases menopause is part of the calculation, in other cases it's just added as a note. I think you should keep it consistent. Lyanna's entry states that she was born in 290 AC.

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Maegor was 5 years younger than his brother Aenys. Aenys was born in 7 AC (see Aenys I Targaryen), meaning that Maegor was born in 12 AC.

Source is missing.

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Pycelle mentions he was 42 years old when he was chosen as King Aegon V’s Grand Maester.^[2] He also mentions he served King Aegon V for a few short months, until Aegon's death in 259 AC.^[2]

Do we know the month in which Aegon V died? Otherwise Pycelle could also have been chosen in 258 AC. I think this would also effect the calculations of Kaeth, Merion, and Ellendor. And you could add the source A Game of Thrones, Chapter 25 for "a few short months".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 6-7-2016 at 6:10 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

In some cases menopause is part of the calculation, in other cases it's just added as a note. I think you should keep it consistent. Lyanna's entry states that she was born in 290 AC.

Thanks!

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Source is missing.

IIRC, the LonCon reading of "The Soms of the Dragon"

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Do we know the month in which Aegon V died? Otherwise Pycelle could also have been chosen in 258 AC. I think this would also effect the calculations of Kaeth, Merion, and Ellendor. And you could add the source A Game of Thrones, Chapter 25 for "a few short months".

We don't know the month, but this does heavily imply that Pycelle could only have been chosen in 259 AC.

 

Edit: And apologies for the delay in responding!!

[Nittanian]

In ACOK Davos I, the Onion Knight recalls "A year ago, he had been with Stannis in King's Landing when King Robert staged a tourney for Prince Joffrey's name day."

King Joffrey celebrates with another tourney on his name day in ACOK Sansa I.

In AGOT Eddard V, Littlefinger says, "Last year he [Barristan] unhorsed the Hound, and it was only four years ago that he was champion."

"History of tourneys in Westeros" includes Barristan defeating Sandor in the section on the 298 tourney, but the "Tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day" article does not mention the Hound.

Do we know if Barristan defeated the Hound in 297 or 298?

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

In ACOK Davos I, the Onion Knight recalls "A year ago, he had been with Stannis in King's Landing when King Robert staged a tourney for Prince Joffrey's name day."

King Joffrey celebrates with another tourney on his name day in ACOK Sansa I.

In AGOT Eddard V, Littlefinger says, "Last year he [Barristan] unhorsed the Hound, and it was only four years ago that he was champion."

"History of tourneys in Westeros" includes Barristan defeating Sandor in the section on the 298 tourney, but the "Tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day" article does not mention the Hound.

Do we know if Barristan defeated the Hound in 297 or 298?

 

AGOT Eddard V takes place in 298 AC, so "last year" should indicate 297 AC.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 6-7-2016 at 6:10 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Source is missing.

So, I've been looking for this one. I seem to recall that it was in the app, or from the Sons of the Dragon reading, but neither specifically states that there were 5 years between the two brothers (it might have been an older piece of info from the app, that disappeared with an update?). The Sons of the Dragon reading notes (here and here) do specifically state that Maegor was born in 12 AC, however.

I only found notes from an earlier reading of the Sons of the Dragon, where the age difference was stated to be ~5 years. I should note that the report contains several things we know to be incorrect (Aenys having multiple sisters , and details regarding Maegor's first marriage), so I'm not sure whether we should use it.

 

What do you think? Remove the calculation and just add the two posts containing 12 AC as Maegor's year of birth as source?

[Nittanian]

I'm a little confused about the timing of events at the end of the Dance of the Dragons.

TWOIAF Aegon II

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On the twenty-second day of the fifth moon of the year 130 AC, Aemond One-eye and Daemon Targaryen entered their last battle. On that same day, chaos and death seized King's Landing. Queen Rhaenyra had imprisoned Lord Corlys for helping his grandson, Ser Addam Velaryon, escape arrest when he was accused of treason. Some of the Sea Snake's sworn swords joined the riotous mob in Cobbler's Square, and some scaled the walls to try to free the Sea Snake, only to be hanged when they were caught. Queen Helaena then fell to her death, impaled on the spikes surrounding Maegor's Holdfast—a suicide some said, and others a murder. And that night, the city burned as the Shepherd's mob marched on the Dragonpit, attempting to slay all the dragons within.

TPATQ

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The golden dragon devoured the queen in six bites, leaving only her left leg below the shin “for the Stranger.” The queen’s son watched in horror, unable to move. Rhaenyra Targaryen, the Realm’s Delight and Half-Year Queen, passed from this veil of tears upon the twenty-second day of tenth moon of the 130th year after Aegon’s Conquest. She was thirty-three years of age.

TWOIAF Aegon II

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Madness gripped the city after Rhaenyra fled, and it showed itself in many ways. Strangest of all was the rise of two pretender kings who reigned during the time remembered as the Moon of the Three Kings ... After the storming of the Dragonpit and Rhaenyra's flight, the Shepherd and his mob ruled much of the city, but Ser Perkin installed Trystane in the abandoned Red Keep and began to issue edicts.

TWOIAF House Baratheon

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But toward the end of the Dance, he and his stormlanders seized King's Landing during the Moon of the Three Kings, restoring the city to order and winning promises that his eldest daughter would become the new queen of the widowed King Aegon II.

TWOIAF Aegon III

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When Aegon the Younger came to the Iron Throne in 131 AC as Aegon III, after the death of his uncle Aegon II, the realm may well have thought that its troubles were done. Aegon III's supporters had defeated the last of Aegon II's host at the Battle of the Kingsroad and had full control of King's Landing.

So the Dance over Harrenhal and the Storming of the Dragonpit occurred in the fifth moon of 130. TWOIAF says the Velaryons turned against Rhaenyra after Daemon's death, and she fled King's Landing. TPATQ says she left the capital the day after the Dragonpit, being barred from Rosby and only briefly staying at Stokeworth and Duskendale. She eventually sailed on the Violande to Dragonstone. Rhaenyra fled King's Landing in the fifth moon and was killed by Sunfyre in the tenth moon, taking five months to travel the crownlands.

Meanwhile, most of King's Landing fell to the Shepherd after Rhaenyra fled the city. At indefinite times Perkin installed Trystane Truefyre in the Red Keep, and Gaemon Palehair was installed at Visenya's Hill. At some point in late 130 or early 131, Borros Baratheon restored order in the capital, with Trystane executed, Gaemon deposed, and Aegon regaining the throne. The Moon of the Three Kings would therefore be this last month when three "kings" were in the city, right? Borros was then killed in the Battle of the Kingsroad in 131 and Aegon the Younger succeeded Aegon the Elder in the same year. The Shepherd's fate is unknown.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

23 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I'm a little confused about the timing of events at the end of the Dance of the Dragons.

TWOIAF Aegon II

TPATQ

TWOIAF Aegon II

TWOIAF House Baratheon

TWOIAF Aegon III

So the Dance over Harrenhal and the Storming of the Dragonpit occurred in the fifth moon of 130. TWOIAF says the Velaryons turned against Rhaenyra after Daemon's death, and she fled King's Landing. TPATQ says she left the capital the day after the Dragonpit, being barred from Rosby and only briefly staying at Stokeworth and Duskendale. She eventually sailed on the Violande to Dragonstone. Rhaenyra fled King's Landing in the fifth moon and was killed by Sunfyre in the tenth moon, taking five months to travel the crownlands.

Meanwhile, most of King's Landing fell to the Shepherd after Rhaenyra fled the city. At indefinite times Perkin installed Trystane Truefyre in the Red Keep, and Gaemon Palehair was installed at Visenya's Hill. At some point in late 130 or early 131, Borros Baratheon restored order in the capital, with Trystane executed, Gaemon deposed, and Aegon regaining the throne. The Moon of the Three Kings would therefore be this last month when three "kings" were in the city, right? Borros was then killed in the Battle of the Kingsroad in 131 and Aegon the Younger succeeded Aegon the Elder in the same year. The Shepherd's fate is unknown.

I think that's mostly it, yes.

Aemond, Daemon and Helaena died on the 22nd day of the 5th month. King's Landing rises in riot that evening, as it does the next evening, which is the evening of the Storming of the Dragonpit. Rhaenyra leaves the city the next day (24nd day of 5th month). 

When the Moon of the Three Kings starts is, I think, a bit vague. Ser Perkin had proclaimed Trystane to be a king already, but we don't know when Gaemon was crowned. Possibly, that might have taken a while. Lord Borros eventually arrived to free the city, prior to Aegon II's return from Dragonstone.

According to TWOIAF, the Moon of the Three Kings was when "two pretender kings" rose. Whether it means that Aegon had to be in the city... I can't say it with 100% certainty, but I doubt that 1) Aegon would march on KL without an army, and 2) Aegon would be in KL for a full month while the two pretender kings still "reigned".

That fact that Rhaenyra dies some 5 months after fleeing KL is, I think, a reflection of the haste and poor conditions in which she fled the city, and the unwillingness of the crownlanders to come to her aid at that point. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@The Wondering Wolf,

Ronnel, Robin, Laena, Joy and Jocelyn Penrose have been added to the project

[Ser Tanatarch]

Really useful and interesting.

Better than my poor doodles in some random papers.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Halleck Hoare's year of death has been added.

With Halleck's addition, the project now (October 23, 2016) counts 557 characters in total, for who a total of 531 calculations have been made for a year of birth, and 70 calculations for the years of death, making it 601 calculations in total!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Balerion (the dragon) has been added, and a slight correction for Brynden Tully has led to a slight specification in Brynden Tully's, Hoster Tully's, and Jon Arryn's entries.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

I think Tyland's appointment as Master of Ships in 103AC is a mistake here given that:

• He was "only a child" when Viserys had the lords of the realm swear fealty to Rhaenyra as his heir over Daemon in 105AC.
• He & his twin, Ser Jason, were among the young men who vied for Rhaenyra's hand in 112AC.
• The MUSH has them born in 96AC, which fits both of the above (Jason only a knight, & not the Lord, of Casterly Rock in 112AC) & that Jason was succeeded by a young son after his death during the Dance with his widow, Lady Johanna Westerling, ruling as the child's Regent for some years.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

21 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I think Tyland's appointment as Master of Ships in 103AC is a mistake here given that:

• He was "only a child" when Viserys had the lords of the realm swear fealty to Rhaenyra as his heir over Daemon in 105AC.
• He & his twin, Ser Jason, were among the young men who vied for Rhaenyra's hand in 112AC.
• The MUSH has them born in 96AC, which fits both of the above (Jason only a knight, & not the Lord, of Casterly Rock in 112AC) & that Jason was succeeded by a young son after his death during the Dance with his widow, Lady Johanna Westerling, ruling as the child's Regent for some years.

Hmm.. I think that was based on this line from TWOIAF, The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

The Lannisters chose to side with Prince Viserys in the deliberations—a choice remembered and rewarded some years later, when Viserys ascended the Iron Throne and made Lord Jason Lannister's twin brother Ser Tyland his master of ships. Later, Ser Tyland became master of coin for King Aegon II, and his close association with the Iron Throne and favored position at court brought his brother, Lord Jason, into the Dance of the Dragons on Aegon's side.

But I think you are correct that this shouldn't be taken literally as "the year Viserys ascended", as Jason was not only too young to be named to such a position "only a child", as well his brother was not yet Lord of Casterly Rock several years later, even though Yandel here states that this was the case as Jason's appointment.

While the MUSH cannot be taken to be canon or semi-canon in any way, it is interesting to note that it was updated for the release of TWOIAF, so the information in there would fit as well as was possible with the canon information from the books. Some things could not be altered, of course, but several dates, names and family tree compositions could, and it is interesting to note that Jason and Tyland did not exist in version 1, but were added for MUSH 2.0, lending quite a lot of credibility to their stated year of birth (though again, we cannot actually use said year).

I'll make the change and see to adding both Jason and Tyland to the project! Thank you for commenting!

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen Thanks for the prompt reply! Ah yes, I can see how that quote would lead to the 103AC timing. Though even with mentioning "when Viserys ascended the Iron Throne", "some years later" is a weird phrase imo for only a gap of two years. It's interesting to consider when Tyland was added to the Small Council, along with the history of the Master of Ships position pre-Dance ...

That Lyman Beesbury had been Master of Coin for Jaehaerys I & Viserys I, but Daemon served as MoC in 103-104AC, so it may be that Lyman served as Master of Ships during this time (there would be a level of transferable knowledge from one to the other & he was obviously a handy MoC given the multiple mentions of how prosperous the reigns of the kings he served were). Corlys doesn't seem to have held it at all, which makes sense for how much he was travelling overseas from c.70-c.100AC, & the somewhat oppositional Targ-Velaryon factions afterwards; though his grandfather was likely Lord Daemon Velaryon who served as MoS for Maegor & then presumably Jaehaerys I for a time. My headcanon is that Aemon "of hallowed memory"/pirate-fighter &/or Baelon "the Brave" served as MoS during their father's reign. Other than that however, I think it's very difficult to try & narrow it down to who served as MoS from the latter parts of Jaehaerys' rule to whenever Tyland was appointed. Anyway, my best guess is that Tyland was chosen after Viserys named Otto as Hand again in 120AC.

Cheers for the MUSH info! I've spent a fair amount of time pouring through the family trees & plan to go through all the files =)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen Thanks for the prompt reply! Ah yes, I can see how that quote would lead to the 103AC timing. Though even with mentioning "when Viserys ascended the Iron Throne", "some years later" is a weird phrase imo for only a gap of two years. It's interesting to consider when Tyland was added to the Small Council, along with the history of the Master of Ships position pre-Dance ...

That Lyman Beesbury had been Master of Coin for Jaehaerys I & Viserys I, but Daemon served as MoC in 103-104AC, so it may be that Lyman served as Master of Ships during this time (there would be a level of transferable knowledge from one to the other & he was obviously a handy MoC given the multiple mentions of how prosperous the reigns of the kings he served were). Corlys doesn't seem to have held it at all, which makes sense for how much he was travelling overseas from c.70-c.100AC, & the somewhat oppositional Targ-Velaryon factions afterwards; though his grandfather was likely Lord Daemon Velaryon who served as MoS for Maegor & then presumably Jaehaerys I for a time. My headcanon is that Aemon "of hallowed memory"/pirate-fighter &/or Baelon "the Brave" served as MoS during their father's reign. Other than that however, I think it's very difficult to try & narrow it down to who served as MoS from the latter parts of Jaehaerys' rule to whenever Tyland was appointed. Anyway, my best guess is that Tyland was chosen after Viserys named Otto as Hand again in 120AC.

Cheers for the MUSH info! I've spent a fair amount of time pouring through the family trees & plan to go through all the files =)

Well, I assume that Corlys began to spend more time at High Tide once his lordship began (a.o. allowing him to construct Driftmark), though we do not know when that was, and definitely after his marriage to Princess Rhaenys, and the birth of their children in 93 AC and 94 AC. Though the passage from TWOIAF describing Corlys does make mention that "So many Velaryons served as lord admiral and master of ships that it was, at times, almost considered a hereditary office." leaving the possibility that Corlys had, at some point, served on the council. However, if he indeed ever served as master of ships, Jaehaerys's decision to pass over Rhaenys in favor of Baelon in 92 AC is likely to have put an end to that, I think. 

As heir to the throne, I would indeed assume that Aemon, and later Baelon, indeed served on the small council (indeed we see Baelon as Hand of the King after Septon Barth and Ser Ryam Redwyne, until his own death). 

 

In any case, I've narrowed the window of time for the births of Jason and Tyland down to "in or between 89 AC and 97 AC", based on the maximum age they could have had in 105 AC and the minimum age they could have had in 112 AC. It's a gap of nine years, unfortunately, and I can only speculate about which years are more likely than the others. Since it seems that Tyland was only named onto the council after his brother had inherited Casterly Rock, his appointment should date after 112 AC, when the previous Lord of CR was still alive. Still not much to go on, but it's something.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen On his Sea Snake voyages, would you agree that there was an earlier voyage to the Jade Sea which "which doubled the wealth of House Velaryon" whereas the last was only as far as Qarth that "made the Velaryons wealthier than even the Lannisters & the Hightowers for a time"? Also that the ex-Empress of Leng tiara that Daemon gave Rhaenyra c.111AC was most likely from the eastern treasures that Corlys acquired?

As a sidenote, I get the feeling that Corlys (& Rhaenys) really played the game (of thrones), so is there any chance that Corlys' Ice Wolf voyage was not just about discovery, but perhaps also to personally call on the Northeners for their support (assuming the voyage was post-94AC) for Laenor if he could get a Great Council called (I assume he eventually did have the political clout to help the GC of 101 be called in the first place)? Or just too tinfoily given Corlys' known thirst for discovery & adventure, tied with the disdain of the Starks (& their vassals, even the Manderlys who lost the Viserra betrothal with her death & not offered say Saera instead) to Jaehaerys & Alysanne for their intervention in the North & with the NW c.80AC  (which would likely lead to them supporting Laenor over Viserys anyway, even without Corlys potentially courting them) ...

Anyway, that's a good quote & point on Corlys perhaps being MoS at some stage pre 92AC though. On that also, when do you think Corlys & Rhaenys were married - before or after Aemon's death? There's obviously time after for Laena to be born the following year & would make sense perhaps as a boon to Corlys (whose mother I believe was Princess-Queen Rhaena) to strengthen Targ-Velaryon relations, whilst giving Rhaenys a worthy (albeit her husband being about twice her age) match. But if it was after Aemon's death, why then did Jaehaerys not marry Rhaenys to Viserys instead, especially considering he turned to (only 11yo, who was pregnant at like 14!) Aemma the following year for him to consolidate his claim against Rhaenys anyway? A possible Aemon-Baelon rivalry? Rhaenys could potentially force herself as Queen Regnant over pushover Viserys as only a King-Consort, thereby potentially giving fuel to the claims of descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, &/or Rhalla?

Yes, good point on Baelon being Hand before his death. Seriously, that death seems pretty suspicious though...

Spot on for Tyland! I don't think you could ranges any clearer than that with the information that we have.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

49 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen On his Sea Snake voyages, would you agree that there was an earlier voyage to the Jade Sea which "which doubled the wealth of House Velaryon" whereas the last was only as far as Qarth that "made the Velaryons wealthier than even the Lannisters & the Hightowers for a time"? Also that the ex-Empress of Leng tiara that Daemon gave Rhaenyra c.111AC was most likely from the eastern treasures that Corlys acquired?

I see no reason to assume that those two voyages must have been the same voyage. I suppose it is possible, since one likely stops at Qarth when traveling from and to the Jade Sea, but not necessarily the case. We know Corlys never sailed to Asshai, at least.

However, considering that the doubling of the wealth is contributed completely to his visit to Leng and Yi Ti, whereas House Velaryon becomming wealthier than the Lannisters and Hightowers is contributed solely to his stop at Qarth, I am more inclined to believe they are the descriptionf of two separate voyages (even though I still think it likely for Corlys to have stopped at Qarth while traveling to Leng and Yi Ti, too).

As to the tiara, perhaps Daemon had received it from Corlys, but perhaps it was something he acquired on his own. It would not have been the only exotic gift he ever gave Rhaenyra (the quoted passages describing the early years of Viserys's reign, prior to Daemon's alliance with Corlys).

Princess Rhaenyra was also enamored of her uncle, for Daemon was ever attentive to her. Whenever he crossed the narrow sea upon his dragon, he brought her back some exotic gift on his return.

 

49 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

As a sidenote, I get the feeling that Corlys (& Rhaenys) really played the game (of thrones), so is there any chance that Corlys' Ice Wolf voyage was not just about discovery, but perhaps also to personally call on the Northeners for their support (assuming the voyage was post-94AC) for Laenor if he could get a Great Council called (I assume he eventually did have the political clout to help the GC of 101 be called in the first place)? Or just too tinfoily given Corlys' known thirst for discovery & adventure, tied with the disdain of the Starks (& their vassals, even the Manderlys who lost the Viserra betrothal with her death & not offered say Saera instead) to Jaehaerys & Alysanne for their intervention in the North & with the NW c.80AC  (which would likely lead to them supporting Laenor over Viserys anyway, even without Corlys potentially courting them) ...

Anyway, that's a good quote & point on Corlys perhaps being MoS at some stage pre 92AC though. On that also, when do you think Corlys & Rhaenys were married - before or after Aemon's death? There's obviously time after for Laena to be born the following year & would make sense perhaps as a boon to Corlys (whose mother I believe was Princess-Queen Rhaena) to strengthen Targ-Velaryon relations, whilst giving Rhaenys a worthy (albeit her husband being about twice her age) match. But if it was after Aemon's death, why then did Jaehaerys not marry Rhaenys to Viserys instead, especially considering he turned to (only 11yo, who was pregnant at like 14!) Aemma the following year for him to consolidate his claim against Rhaenys anyway? A possible Aemon-Baelon rivalry? Rhaenys could potentially force herself as Queen Regnant over pushover Viserys as only a King-Consort, thereby potentially giving fuel to the claims of descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, &/or Rhalla?

I think before. Rhaenys was Aemon's only heir. If Aemon had ascended the throne, he would have been rather likely to name her his successor. The marriage to Corlys would then have made a lot of sense, at it would bind the Velaryon fleet to the Iron Throne by marriage, whilst giving Rhaenys a Valyrian-looking, powerful King Consort.

Laena's birth took place in 93 AC, so I'd assume that they had been married by the time of Aemon's death. Also, why would Corlys agree to the marriage after Baelon is named heir over Rhaenys? Prior to Aemon's death, Rhaenys had the advantage of being in direct line for the throne. After Baelon's appointment as Prince of Dragonstone, Rhaenys lost that position, so politically, their marriage occurring before Aemon's death makes most sense imo.

As well, I think Viserys married a cousin for a few reasons reason, one of which being to limit the claims to the throne. Marrying Rhaenys, despite the age-difference, would have been a solution, and the fact that this didn't happen can also be seen as an argument in favor of Rhaenys's marriage having occurred prior to Aemon's death. She simply wasn't available, and so Viserys married his young cousin Aemma the following year. 

In fact, it might even be possible that Rhaenys was pregnant during the time Jaehaerys had to decide who his heir was going to be. In any case, the fact that Laena's birth occurred the same year as Viserys's marriage, is a rather curious thing.. It might explain why Aemma was still so young, and thus why they did not wait until she was a few years older.  

I'm not so sure about Corlys's journey on the Ice Wolf. There are no rumours that we know of that claim that people were trying to gather support against Baelon's position as heir. I get the feeling that the Ice Wolf was an earlier ship owned by Corlys, and that he later acquired the Sea Snake, which he then continued to use from that point onwards. It sounds like a journey a younger man would be more likely to make, not a ruling Lord whose only heir is a very young child at the moment. Considering Corlys's age (he was born in 53 AC, which made him 40 upon Laena's birth and 41 upon Laenor's birth the following year), I think his lengthy journey's were done before he got married.

 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen Apologies for the long overdue reply.

Yes, the separate growths in wealth to the Jade Sea-extent & Qarth-extent quotes also makes me believe that they were two of the Sea Snake's voyages. Additionally:

• The first (besides just being a voyage of discovery) may have helped Corlys finance his Shivering Sea voyage, along with the ability to buy twenty extra ships for the Qarth-extent one (did he have to also hire crews & so extra ships for those Qartheen(?) to be able to get back home, or did he buy slave crews giving them their freedom by the time he got back to Driftmark (& so they likely joined the local smallfolk population?), or did he take extra ships of his own packed with Driftmark men to be able to crew those new ships home?!)
• Perhaps tied into that first point, a second voyage only as far Qarth shows Corlys had planned that last voyage very well (from the experiences of his earlier voyage to the Jade Sea, which obviously would've had at least one stop in Qarth) to be able to trade for such an increase in wealth there (goods from the west for goods from the east among such) & to be able to get so much of it back home.
• Obviously the earlier voyages would've made up the likes of journeys to the Free Cities, Stepstones, Sunset Sea side of Westeros, Summer Isles, Slaver's Bay, &/or the Basilisk Isles building up to the Jade Sea; but an extra last voyage to Qarth means that Corlys' other great voyages wouldn't have perhaps doubled on those locations as much (whilst still being "great" - i.e. not just going only to a Free City or two for the other voyages).

Thanks for the tiara observations. I'm interested in what happened to it ... If Daemon didn't get it off Corlys then it most likely destroyed with so much else at High Tide, unfortunately. If he did, then Rhaenyra doesn't seem to have had it when she had to sell Jaehaerys & Viserys' "Faith" crown to buy passage to Dragonstone - perhaps she destroyed it/threw it away in a fit of rage over Daemon's affair with Nettles ...

Also, thanks for the Rhaenys-Corlys thoughts! ... I think you've convinced me that they were married before Aemon's death. I particularly liked the possibility of Rhaenys being pregnant with Laena at that time to help further explain Aemma's early marriage to Viserys (& it seems like there wasn't even any decent waiting time after her first moonblood as is normally customary in less politically &/or timing important marriages). The only possible problem I could have with that (assuming Rhaenys was Meleys' only rider), unless Rhaenys was only in the earlier stages of pregnancy, is my headcanon that Melys & her rider saw combat together before the Dance; & so Rhaenys may have even been supporting her father on dragonback against the Myrish pirates:

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Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe. Against Vhagar alone she might have had some chance, for the Red Queen was old and cunning, and no stranger to battle. Against Vhagar and Sunfyre together, doom was certain. (The Princess & the Queen)

Then again, Rhaenys may have even supported Corlys & Daemon in the Stepstones instead at some stage upon Meleys (or perhaps even both battle occurrences):

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The sailors of the Triarchy had faced dragons before whilst warring against Prince Daemon in the Stepstones. (TPatQ)

I'm inclined to take that literally as more than just Caraxes the Triarchy faced in the Stepstones. I really don't think Corlys & Rhaenys would allow Laena to fight there (plus the text suggests that Daemon, at the very least from only being a/v himself then, only really took notice of Laena after Rhea died), particularly if Aemon himself had actually been on dragonback when he died. Everything points against it being Laenor & Seasmoke, & again that's if his parents would've allowed him to fight, which again is likely no. So unless the dragonrider was the Prince Aegon who we know nothing about, I'm inclined to believe it was Rhaenys on Meleys.

Ah, great points on Corlys & the Ice Wolf - that all makes far more sense.

As a side note, do you if there any plans to include House Velaryon in the MUSH? Or would that be too-spoilery? I'd love to know more about Vaemond & the other relations & if any fought with Corlys in the Stepstones (though I would think Rhaenys would fill that role, perhaps Vaemond was castellan of Driftmark at some stage whilst Corlys was away & so that may have further played into his later ambitions to inherit the Merling Throne) ...

On 8/13/2016 at 6:48 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That fact that Rhaenyra dies some 5 months after fleeing KL is, I think, a reflection of the haste and poor conditions in which she fled the city, and the unwillingness of the crownlanders to come to her aid at that point.

Like @Nittanian, I'm also interested about this timing. Rhaenyra's flight from KL makes sense with the Battle of the Gullet at the end of 129AC & "Half-Year Queen", but what the hell do you think she did for +4 months before getting to Dragonstone?! Most/all that time in the town of Duskendale just trying to get passage to Dragonstone, perhaps hiding out with her entourage akin to how Aegon II had?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sorry for the delayed reply!

On 10-11-2016 at 6:55 AM, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen Apologies for the long overdue reply.

Yes, the separate growths in wealth to the Jade Sea-extent & Qarth-extent quotes also makes me believe that they were two of the Sea Snake's voyages. Additionally:

• The first (besides just being a voyage of discovery) may have helped Corlys finance his Shivering Sea voyage, along with the ability to buy twenty extra ships for the Qarth-extent one (did he have to also hire crews & so extra ships for those Qartheen(?) to be able to get back home, or did he buy slave crews giving them their freedom by the time he got back to Driftmark (& so they likely joined the local smallfolk population?), or did he take extra ships of his own packed with Driftmark men to be able to crew those new ships home?!)
• Perhaps tied into that first point, a second voyage only as far Qarth shows Corlys had planned that last voyage very well (from the experiences of his earlier voyage to the Jade Sea, which obviously would've had at least one stop in Qarth) to be able to trade for such an increase in wealth there (goods from the west for goods from the east among such) & to be able to get so much of it back home.
• Obviously the earlier voyages would've made up the likes of journeys to the Free Cities, Stepstones, Sunset Sea side of Westeros, Summer Isles, Slaver's Bay, &/or the Basilisk Isles building up to the Jade Sea; but an extra last voyage to Qarth means that Corlys' other great voyages wouldn't have perhaps doubled on those locations as much (whilst still being "great" - i.e. not just going only to a Free City or two for the other voyages).

Perhaps he bought slaves (Gerion Lannister had done so in Volantis after half his crew had deserted him), perhaps he had brought his own men from home (if he had intended to do what he did from the star of his voyage), perhaps he hired sailors... Can't really say.

 

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Thanks for the tiara observations. I'm interested in what happened to it ... If Daemon didn't get it off Corlys then it most likely destroyed with so much else at High Tide, unfortunately. If he did, then Rhaenyra doesn't seem to have had it when she had to sell Jaehaerys & Viserys' "Faith" crown to buy passage to Dragonstone - perhaps she destroyed it/threw it away in a fit of rage over Daemon's affair with Nettles ...

If Daemon did not get it from Corlys I'd expect it to have remained on Dragonstone, Rhaenyra's seat, when she went to KL. She'd have had no such use for the tiara in KL, where she would have worn her crown instead. The destruction in a fit of rage is, of course, also possible. (Though Rhaenyra had apparently no problem with keeping a former mistress of Daemon, who had once been pregnant with his child, close to her at court in KL).

 

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Also, thanks for the Rhaenys-Corlys thoughts! ... I think you've convinced me that they were married before Aemon's death. I particularly liked the possibility of Rhaenys being pregnant with Laena at that time to help further explain Aemma's early marriage to Viserys (& it seems like there wasn't even any decent waiting time after her first moonblood as is normally customary in less politically &/or timing important marriages). The only possible problem I could have with that (assuming Rhaenys was Meleys' only rider), unless Rhaenys was only in the earlier stages of pregnancy, is my headcanon that Melys & her rider saw combat together before the Dance; & so Rhaenys may have even been supporting her father on dragonback against the Myrish pirates:

Then again, Rhaenys may have even supported Corlys & Daemon in the Stepstones instead at some stage upon Meleys (or perhaps even both battle occurrences):

I'm inclined to take that literally as more than just Caraxes the Triarchy faced in the Stepstones. I really don't think Corlys & Rhaenys would allow Laena to fight there (plus the text suggests that Daemon, at the very least from only being a/v himself then, only really took notice of Laena after Rhea died), particularly if Aemon himself had actually been on dragonback when he died. Everything points against it being Laenor & Seasmoke, & again that's if his parents would've allowed him to fight, which again is likely no. So unless the dragonrider was the Prince Aegon who we know nothing about, I'm inclined to believe it was Rhaenys on Meleys.

That's certainly possible, that she was in one of those battles - or both.

Rhaenys was born in 74 AC, and thus would have been 18 (or close to turning 18) when her father died. Marrying at 16-18 would seem likely, especially for the only heir to the heir to the throne. 

I agree that Laena is not likely to have fought at the Stepstones. At least not besides Daemon.

 

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As a side note, do you if there any plans to include House Velaryon in the MUSH? Or would that be too-spoilery? I'd love to know more about Vaemond & the other relations & if any fought with Corlys in the Stepstones (though I would think Rhaenys would fill that role, perhaps Vaemond was castellan of Driftmark at some stage whilst Corlys was away & so that may have further played into his later ambitions to inherit the Merling Throne) ...

I have no idea. Aegon III's wife, Daenaera, is mentioned in the MUSH, though not by name, and Alyn Oakenfist plays a role as well. So perhaps, in the stories published alongside the game, others from that family might be mentioned every now and then.

If the game will need a larger numbers of Velaryons, I guess they might get their own family tree. But as long as that is not necessary, perhaps they won't. 

I would guess that Fire and Blood will give us more information about the Velaryons, as they were, especially in the first 1,5 century following the Conquest, tightly connected to House Targaryen.

 

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Like @Nittanian, I'm also interested about this timing. Rhaenyra's flight from KL makes sense with the Battle of the Gullet at the end of 129AC & "Half-Year Queen", but what the hell do you think she did for +4 months before getting to Dragonstone?! Most/all that time in the town of Duskendale just trying to get passage to Dragonstone, perhaps hiding out with her entourage akin to how Aegon II had?

Rhaenyra fled near the end of the fifth month, and died towards the end of the tenth month, giving her some five month to get from KL to Dragonstone. Why it took her that long, I can only speculate, but again, I do think that it is likely that it is at least partially a reflection of the poor conditions in which she fled. They were not prepared, and faced many difficulties along their journey. Did they have horses, or were they solely on foot? How long did she remain in Duskendale? We don't know, but those two might be important factors.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ronald Connington's year of death has been added.