Rhaenys_Targaryen

The Wiki-Timeline Project [Calculations]

170 posts in this topic

After this project is completed (thus edited into the wiki completely), I'm going to take another look at the most precise timeline that's currently online.

The calculations I've done have uncovered some mistakes in there, that need fixing, and others have found some mistakes in that timeline as well the last few weeks. As an editor to that timeline, I want to try and get those mistakes out.

That's good news! I intend to work on this timeline as well, but for now I'm still in the stage of collecting data. I'll be happy to provide help if you need some.

Perhaps that would be more something for on the Events page though? Under (5)miscellaneous, (5.2)The North.

Wouldn't be easier to add it in your characters's listing? After the stuff about the year of birth?

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Wouldn't be easier to add it in your characters's listing? After the stuff about the year of birth?

Yeah, it doesn't really make a difference. It can be put there as well. :p might be easier indeed.

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I've updated the list pages with the names:

-Aemma Arryn

-Alicent Hightower

-Criston Cole

-Gwayne Hightower

-Harwin Strong

-Dalbridge

-Larys Strong

-Creighton Longbough

-Dalton Greyjoy

-Lyman Beesbury

-Benjicot Blackwood

-Hobert Hightower

-Norren (maester)

-Trystane (squire)

-Glendon Goode

-Laena Velaryon

-Laenor Velaryon

-Viserys I Targaryen

-Joffrey Lonmouth

I also fixed the error on the fourth page that made editing very difficult, and caused part of the text to be displayed twice.

These should be all the names from TRP and TPATQ that can be calculated.

Same as before, if you feel that anyone is missing (or from D&E or the main series) post the name here, and I'll see if anything can be calculated for them. ;)

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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This is great stuff, will share!

Thanks! :)

A further update:

I've finished putting the results on the characters pages, and have started placing the results on the "Years after Aegon's Conquest" page.. That's where I've encountered a problem:

The page is reaching it's size limit, and there's still plenty to put on there (only half is now online).. Does anyone have an idea on how to fix this?

I was thinking that a possible solution would be, instead of referencing to the calculation entry of each character specifically, referencing to E for all characters whose name begins with E? That should safe some space.. Date-wise speaking

Another thing is making a template for it (should safe also a lot of date space), but I'd rather try that only as a Plan B ..

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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I'm pretty bothered by the deal with Tyrion's age, and how it has been listed.



See, the page tells us that he is "at least" twenty-three in 298, as is currently written - so we know it's no later than 275. We're also aware that Oberyn Martell was 16 when he was sent abroad following the deal with Lord Yronwood - and Oberyn was born in either 257 or 258, which means that he would have been 16-going-on-17 at the YOUNGEST in 275. While this doesn't strictly narrow things down, it is valuable information for Tyrion's age (and possibly should be added as well). So far, so good.



But after that it gets murky... based on a comment Tyrion makes about being 10-years-old during the Rebellion, it's been "concluded" that he was born in either 272 or 273 so that he'd have passed his 10th birthday by the time Robert's Rebellion ended. Thing is, though... in which chapter did he state this? To whom? And was he being frank and honest when he said it, or not? More importantly, it's quite possible that Tyrion might have simply been rounding off his age to the nearest multiple of 5 rather than being ABSOLUTELY accurate, especially since he may well have not been thinking specifically on the numbers and just did them on instinct... he might also be associating the Rebellion and its aftermath with his age of the time, as I'm sure that the country was feeling the aftereffects of the Rebellion even into 284.



Plus, we can't strictly rule out Oberyn's account of Cersei and Jaime's ages being "8 or 9" given that while it's not specific, he would have no REASON to pretend that they were older rather than younger. He's not stupid: he knows that as much as he dislikes Tyrion and all Lannisters on principle, that Tyrion would know his own age based on things. Tyrion is also aware at this point that he was only born very recently when Oberyn and Elia came to Casterly Rock with their mother - he would KNOW how old his own siblings are compared to him, he'd KNOW their namedays. There's no REASON for Oberyn to lie... he might, however, have misremembered their ages as being 1 or 2 years greater than they actually were, but this would be unlikely because he is, once again, NOT stupid.



I'd also like for anyone who has access to a copy of AGOT to check the comment about Tyrion's age - was it outright stated that he is 23, or simply that he'd passed his 23rd birthday/nameday.



Because as it stands, I can think of three possibilities right now - 1st, Tyrion was rounding off his own age to 10 when he was 8-9 in 282/283; 2nd, the comment he makes about being 10 in 300 is a numerical error (which writers are quite prone to making, even ones with good mathematical skills, because they slip up - again, we need a REFERENCE for when this happened to back it up); or 3rd, it was a deliberate Retcon about Tyrion's age, possibly pertaining to the time skip being discarded.



Either way, with this contradictory information I don't think we CAN determine Tyrion's precise year for the moment. So it was no earlier than 272, but it COULD have been as late as 275. I wonder whether this should be edited for that - we don't want to rule out any possibilities after all, and a double-check to make sure none of the information given is false would be necessary (checking the referenced chapters again, plus confirming the chapter Tyrion says he was 10 in the Rebellion).



Given that Oberyn gives multiple, contradictory dates regarding his own age when he talks to Tyrion, I'm not inclined to be sure whether GRRM himself realised how many contradictions he gave overall, or whether he'd even ironed out such specifical details (Jaime's own birth year, if I recall correctly, was not even confirmed specifically until 266, which in itself makes me wonder if Martin had meant him to be 265 initially). So we can't say anymore until we get SPECIFIC birth years.



Therefore, I would be inclined to date Tyrion's birth year between 272-275, until we get solid facts elsewhere... But that's just my two cents.

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I'm pretty bothered by the deal with Tyrion's age, and how it has been listed.

See, the page tells us that he is "at least" twenty-three in 298, as is currently written - so we know it's no later than 275. We're also aware that Oberyn Martell was 16 when he was sent abroad following the deal with Lord Yronwood - and Oberyn was born in either 257 or 258, which means that he would have been 16-going-on-17 at the YOUNGEST in 275. While this doesn't strictly narrow things down, it is valuable information for Tyrion's age (and possibly should be added as well). So far, so good.

But after that it gets murky... based on a comment Tyrion makes about being 10-years-old during the Rebellion, it's been "concluded" that he was born in either 272 or 273 so that he'd have passed his 10th birthday by the time Robert's Rebellion ended. Thing is, though... in which chapter did he state this? To whom? And was he being frank and honest when he said it, or not? More importantly, it's quite possible that Tyrion might have simply been rounding off his age to the nearest multiple of 5 rather than being ABSOLUTELY accurate, especially since he may well have not been thinking specifically on the numbers and just did them on instinct... he might also be associating the Rebellion and its aftermath with his age of the time, as I'm sure that the country was feeling the aftereffects of the Rebellion even into 284.

Good call on the missing reference. That was Dance with Dragons, chapter 22, Tyrion VI. Tyrion was speaking to Prince Aegon here, and was being truthful about what he said (far as far as can be judged).

This is the quote from the book:

“Did you know my true father?”

“Well, I saw him twice or thrice, but I was only ten when Robert killed him, and mine own sire had me hidden underneath a rock. No, I cannot claim I knew Prince Rhaegar. Not as your false father did. Lord Connington was the prince’s dearest friend, was he not?”

Showing that Tyrion was 10 years old in the second half of 283AC (when the battle of the Trident took place)

I considered that Tyrion might have been rounding the numbers, but seeing as how he doesn't do this in any of his other chapters, be it in speech or in his thoughts, I sincerely doubt that he had been rounding.

Plus, we can't strictly rule out Oberyn's account of Cersei and Jaime's ages being "8 or 9" given that while it's not specific, he would have no REASON to pretend that they were older rather than younger. He's not stupid: he knows that as much as he dislikes Tyrion and all Lannisters on principle, that Tyrion would know his own age based on things. Tyrion is also aware at this point that he was only born very recently when Oberyn and Elia came to Casterly Rock with their mother - he would KNOW how old his own siblings are compared to him, he'd KNOW their namedays. There's no REASON for Oberyn to lie... he might, however, have misremembered their ages as being 1 or 2 years greater than they actually were, but this would be unlikely because he is, once again, NOT stupid.

The thing about Oberyns multiple accounts and ages, is that the numbers he gives are different every time. He also talks a bit uninterested in the details. I've done the calculations on paper for every number he gives, and it makes me end up with different results each time. Oberyn wouldn't have been lying, Oberyn would have been misremembering, but that would be due to not really having been interested in Jaime and Cersei at the time, not because he's stupid :) because he's deifinitly not stupid, and I never meant to suggest such.

I'd also like for anyone who has access to a copy of AGOT to check the comment about Tyrion's age - was it outright stated that he is 23, or simply that he'd passed his 23rd birthday/nameday.

As I said, it was stated that the horse had been a gift for his 23rd nameday. It is nowhere stated, however, how many years ago that 23rd nameday was, or how long Tyrion had had the horse. All that quote can be used for, is to agree that Tyrion ws 23 or older in 298AC

The full quote:

“My brother Jaime gave me that mare for my twenty-third name day,” Tyrion said in a flat voice.

Either way, with this contradictory information I don't think we CAN determine Tyrion's precise year for the moment. So it was no earlier than 272, but it COULD have been as late as 275. I wonder whether this should be edited for that - we don't want to rule out any possibilities after all, and a double-check to make sure none of the information given is false would be necessary (checking the referenced chapters again, plus confirming the chapter Tyrion says he was 10 in the Rebellion).

Given that Oberyn gives multiple, contradictory dates regarding his own age when he talks to Tyrion, I'm not inclined to be sure whether GRRM himself realised how many contradictions he gave overall, or whether he'd even ironed out such specifical details (Jaime's own birth year, if I recall correctly, was not even confirmed specifically until 266, which in itself makes me wonder if Martin had meant him to be 265 initially). So we can't say anymore until we get SPECIFIC birth years.

Therefore, I would be inclined to date Tyrion's birth year between 272-275, until we get solid facts elsewhere... But that's just my two cents.

Indeed, Tyrions exact year cannot be determined at the moment.

Ran has confirmed the ages of Jaime and Cersei, and with the World Book having been in the making for the past 6 years, IIRC, ages and birth years like these would have been fleshed out a bit, or would have already been in GRRMs notes (whether those notes were actually checked is a second thing we can wonder about).

With Oberyns attitude during the conversation, combined with the fact that the numbers he gives don't add up, and the fact that Tyrion is always rather precise when giving ages and other years, I sincerely doubt that he was rounding up or down when he told Aegon he was only 10 years old at the end of the Rebellion.

Especially when Oberyn delivers his quotes like this:

“It was when I visited Casterly Rock with my mother, her consort, and my sister Elia. I was, oh, fourteen, fifteen, thereabouts, Elia a year older. Your brother and sister were eight or nine, as I recall, and you had just been born.”

Note that Oberyn basically says "I was 14, 15 or something like that"

For the time being, I'd rather go with the accounts that are delivered with certainty (like Tyrions), like the ones delivered with uncertainty.

If anyone disagrees, though, let me know.

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Ok, so the last week and a half, I've been busy pulling quotes from the World Book, and I am now almost done, so I thought an update would be in order :)


There are quite a few changes to be made, and while I've tried my best, I needs a few more hours to work on it, in order to update the whole thing correctly in one go :) As it is currently quite late, that will be tomorrow.



I'll post a list of changes here once I've edited them in ;)


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And as promised, a (mostly complete) list of all changes that have been made (it could always be that I forgot to list a name, while I did make a change to the entry).



First, a new rule has been added. Second, some of the characters for who an entry in the project had been created, have yet to receive their own wikipedia-page.



Third, all the changes, listed below.



All names confirmed, and therefore, removed from the project:


  • Aegon IV Targaryen
  • Aemma Arryn
  • Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)
  • Brandon Stark
  • Brynden Rivers
  • Cersei Lannister
  • Criston Cole
  • Daemon I Blackfyre
  • Daeron II Targaryen
  • Jaime Lannister
  • Naerys Targaryen
  • Robert Baratheon
  • Tyrion Lannister


Those entries that had already been present in the project, but have now been altered:


  • Aegon Blackfyre
  • Aegon Targaryen (son of Rhaegar)
  • Aegon V Targaryen
  • Aegor Rivers
  • Aemon Blackfyre
  • Aemon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Aenys I Targaryen
  • Aeron Greyjoy
  • Aerys I Targaryen
  • Alysanne Targaryen
  • Ambrose Butterwell
  • Arlan of Pennytree
  • Baelon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Baelor I Targaryen
  • Baelor Targaryen (son of Daeron II)
  • Benjicot Blackwood
  • Daemon II Blackfyre
  • Daemon Targaryen
  • Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon IV)
  • Daeron I Targaryen
  • Daven Lannister
  • Duncan Targaryen
  • Eddard Stark
  • Genna Lannister
  • Jaehaerys I Targaryen
  • Jaehaerys II Targaryen
  • Kevan Lannister
  • Lady Frey (Walder Frey's sister)
  • Laena Velaryon
  • Laenor Velaryon
  • Lyman Beesbury
  • Mya Stone
  • Olenna Redwyne
  • Rhaelle Targaryen
  • Rickard Stark
  • Shiera Seastar
  • Stannis Baratheon
  • Tattered Prince
  • Tytos Lannister


Brand new entries:


  • Aegon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Aenys Blackfyre
  • Aerea Targaryen
  • Aeryn Targaryen
  • Alysanne (daughter of Aegon IV)
  • Alyssa Targaryen
  • Balerion (son of Aegon IV)
  • Barba Bracken
  • Bellenora
  • Betha Blackwood
  • Bethany Bracken
  • Boremund Baratheon
  • Cerelle Lannister
  • Corlys Velaryon
  • Daella Targaryen (daughter of Jaehaerys I)
  • Daella Targaryen (daughter of Maekar)
  • Daemon III Blackfyre
  • Daenaera Velaryon
  • Daeron Targaryen (son of Aegon V)
  • Damon Lannister (son of Jason)
  • Elinor Costayne
  • Euron Greyjoy
  • Falena Stokeworth
  • Gael Targaryen
  • Gaemon Palehair
  • Gaemon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Gwenys Rivers
  • Haegon I Blackfyre
  • Jaehaera Targaryen (death section only)
  • Jason Lannister (son of Gerold)
  • Jeyne Lothston
  • Jeyne Westerling (wife of Maegor I)
  • Joanna Lannister
  • Jocelyn Baratheon
  • Kermit Tully
  • Larra Rogare
  • Lily
  • Lynora Hill
  • Maegelle Targaryen
  • Marla Prester
  • Melissa Blackwood
  • Meria Martell
  • Morning
  • Mushroom (death section only)
  • Mya Rivers
  • Narha
  • Rhae Targaryen
  • Rhalla Targaryen
  • Rosey (daughter of Aegon IV)
  • Saera Targaryen
  • Shaera Targaryen
  • Sharra Arryn
  • Tygett Lannister
  • Urrigon Greyjoy
  • Vaegon Targaryen
  • Valerion Targaryen
  • Victarion Greyjoy
  • Viserra Targaryen
  • Viserys Plumm
  • Walderan Tarbeck
  • Willow
  • Yandel

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I know someone who has been very very busy industrious...






All names confirmed, and therefore, removed from the project:


  • Aegon IV Targaryen
  • Aemma Arryn
  • Aemon Targaryen (son of Viserys II)
  • Brandon Stark
  • Brynden Rivers
  • Cersei Lannister
  • Criston Cole
  • Daemon I Blackfyre
  • Daeron II Targaryen
  • Jaime Lannister
  • Naerys Targaryen
  • Robert Baratheon
  • Tyrion Lannister


Those entries that had already been present in the project, but have now been altered:


  • Aegon Blackfyre
  • Aegon Targaryen (son of Rhaegar)
  • Aegon V Targaryen
  • Aegor Rivers
  • Aemon Blackfyre
  • Aemon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Aenys I Targaryen
  • Aeron Greyjoy
  • Aerys I Targaryen
  • Alysanne Targaryen
  • Ambrose Butterwell
  • Arlan of Pennytree
  • Baelon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Baelor I Targaryen
  • Baelor Targaryen (son of Daeron II)
  • Benjicot Blackwood
  • Daemon II Blackfyre
  • Daemon Targaryen
  • Daenerys Targaryen (daughter of Aegon IV)
  • Daeron I Targaryen
  • Daven Lannister
  • Duncan Targaryen
  • Eddard Stark
  • Genna Lannister
  • Jaehaerys I Targaryen
  • Jaehaerys II Targaryen
  • Kevan Lannister
  • Lady Frey (Walder Frey's sister)
  • Laena Velaryon
  • Laenor Velaryon
  • Lyman Beesbury
  • Mya Stone
  • Olenna Redwyne
  • Rhaelle Targaryen
  • Rickard Stark
  • Shiera Seastar
  • Stannis Baratheon
  • Tattered Prince
  • Tytos Lannister


Brand new entries:


  • Aegon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Aenys Blackfyre
  • Aerea Targaryen
  • Aeryn Targaryen
  • Alysanne (daughter of Aegon IV)
  • Alyssa Targaryen
  • Balerion (son of Aegon IV)
  • Barba Bracken
  • Bellenora
  • Betha Blackwood
  • Bethany Bracken
  • Boremund Baratheon
  • Cerelle Lannister
  • Corlys Velaryon
  • Daella Targaryen (daughter of Jaehaerys I)
  • Daella Targaryen (daughter of Maekar)
  • Daemon III Blackfyre
  • Daenaera Velaryon
  • Daeron Targaryen (son of Aegon V)
  • Damon Lannister (son of Jason)
  • Elinor Costayne
  • Euron Greyjoy
  • Falena Stokeworth
  • Gael Targaryen
  • Gaemon Palehair
  • Gaemon Targaryen (son of Jaehaerys I)
  • Gwenys Rivers
  • Haegon I Blackfyre
  • Jaehaera Targaryen (death section only)
  • Jason Lannister (son of Gerold)
  • Jeyne Lothston
  • Jeyne Westerling (wife of Maegor I)
  • Joanna Lannister
  • Jocelyn Baratheon
  • Kermit Tully
  • Larra Rogare
  • Lily
  • Lynora Hill
  • Maegelle Targaryen
  • Marla Prester
  • Melissa Blackwood
  • Meria Martell
  • Morning
  • Mushroom (death section only)
  • Mya Rivers
  • Narha
  • Rhae Targaryen
  • Rhalla Targaryen
  • Rosey (daughter of Aegon IV)
  • Saera Targaryen
  • Shaera Targaryen
  • Sharra Arryn
  • Tygett Lannister
  • Urrigon Greyjoy
  • Vaegon Targaryen
  • Valerion Targaryen
  • Victarion Greyjoy
  • Viserra Targaryen
  • Viserys Plumm
  • Walderan Tarbeck
  • Willow
  • Yandel





Look at this!



Thank you very much, @Rhaenys_Targaryen


Edited by Jon Weirgaryen

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FYI, the wiki's content on the Whitewalls tourney and 2BR mentions 212 AC, but TWOIAF states in "Aerys I" that these events were in 211 AC.


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FYI, the wiki's content on the Whitewalls tourney and 2BR mentions 212 AC, but TWOIAF states in "Aerys I" that these events were in 211 AC.

Yeah, I haven't caught all of those yet on the wiki pages, but every mention of an age on TMK has had the 212 changed to 211 AC, (or at least, it should be that I caught them all)

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A look at a new entry requested:



The quotes used:


“Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people.”


[...]


But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces.”


“No one visits the Isle of Faces,” objected Bran. “That’s where the green men live.”


“It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a threepronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork.” [...] “He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the isle of Faces.”


[...]


All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”




From the World Book:


In the annals of Westeros, 281 AC is knonw as the Year of the False Spring. Winter had held the land in its icy grip for close on two years, but now at last the snows were melting, the woods were greening, the days were growing longer.



We have an SSM stating (dating from between Storm and Feast), that Howland is "in his thirties", thus between the age of 31 and 39 (possibly turning 40 later that year)



So the winter had begun in 279 AC. When the little crannogman (Howland), had reached manhood (16), he left for the Isle of Faces, where he would remain all of the winter. Being in his 30ties in 300 AC, would place his age between 31 and 39 (possibly turning 40 later in the year), meaning he was born in or between 260 AC and 269 AC.


However, Howland was thus at least 16 years old when winter "ended" in 281 AC, thus, he was born no later than 265 AC. Howland was thus born in or between 260 AC and 265 AC.



Would "all that winter" mean that Howland had spend all 2 years of winter at the Isle of Faces, or does it mean all of winter from the moment Howland had arrived (leaving room for Howland to have arrived after the start of winter)?


Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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You're like, awesome and stuff.

Heh, thanks :blushing:

I do feel we cannot say with 100% certainty that "he remained at the Isle all that winter" means that Howland arrived at the start, or even before winter's start, at the Isle of Faces, so I've kept Howlands birth-range between 260 and 265 AC..

I was quite happy to have re-discovered these quotes :)

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The Aegon IV article says he was born in 135 as son of Viserys II Targaryen who according his article was born in 122. That makes Viserys 12 (or maybe just 13) when he fathered his child. I guess it is possible but it seems to me a bit implausible


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The Aegon IV article says he was born in 135 as son of Viserys II Targaryen who according his article was born in 122. That makes Viserys 12 (or maybe just 13) when he fathered his child. I guess it is possible but it seems to me a bit implausible

The source for Aegons date of birth is the World Book, the source for Viserys' birth TRP. So yeah, it was a rather young age for Viserys to conceive.

Yet, here is another of such an instance. Besides Maegor's boasts of having conceived at his wedding night at the age of 13, we also have Petyr Frey, whose daughter Petra was born in 294 AC. Yet Petyr was only a year or two older than Robb Stark (b. 283), which would place his birth in either 281 AC or 282 AC. From those two, 281 AC seems most logical, as otherwise he would have been 12 at the birth of his child, and 11 or 12 when conceiving..

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