Rhaenys_Targaryen

The Wiki-Timeline Project [Calculations]

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I've been doing a little Tully research on the side and I found what appears to be an error in the calculation for Edmure's age.



The range in the wiki is set at 267-277, but this cannot be. Edmure's mother Minisa died in 273. So the absolute earliest he could've been born is early 273, and that's a stretch considering she died giving birth what would've been Edmure's brother.

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How is Minisa's year of death determined? I haven't been able to find anything about when her death occurred...

I think I know what happened. Originally, the wiki had stated that Edmure was born in 273 AC.. something that no one had thought to place a source by. The wiki states now that Minisa died after 273 AC... Which, with Edmure's year of birth uncertain, seems to be wrong as well.

Or did I miss a hint on Minisa's date of death?

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That's a good point, I can't find Minisa's death date anywhere, I suppose that was invented and is now accepted by many, but shouldn't be.



However, Edmure was Brandon Stark's squire when Brandon dueled Petyr Baelish. If he was born in 277 he would be a 3-4 year old squire, an idea we can safely discard. (I'm forgetting what year duel took place, 280?)



We can safely assume Edmure was at least 10, probably more like 12, to have served Brandon in this capacity. Thus, even 273 is probably too late.



It seems nearly impossible for Edmure to have been born later than 10 years prior to the duel.


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The youngest known squire in asoiaf is Dunk, at the age of 5, which is why the minimum age of 5 for a squire is used in calculations.



The duel took place in 282 AC, at with the minimum age of 5, that places Edmures birth definitly no later than 277 AC. Logic tells us that he most likely was born a few years before, but because no amount of years can be given, that cannot be displayed on the wiki.,



Catelyn remembers that Minisa died when she was relatively young. What is young? Is that 5? 10? 12? Hard to define, when the character herself doesn't. In addition, we should remember that Catelyn, Lysa and LF always did stuff together, but Edmure was never included... suggesting a difference of a few years between Edmure and LF (LF was born in 268 AC).



Because Catelyn's statement of "mother died young" and Edmure being most likely a little bit younger than LF at least cannot be defined in years, only factual years can be given. And that means at least 1 year younger than Lysa, and at least 5 at the time of the duel, which makes us reach 267 AC to 277 AC. A little bit of logic will help realise that Edmure's actual year of birth will be somewhere in the middle of that, but nothing exact can be stated.




As to the duel itself... it wouldn't be the first time that squires younger than the normal age were used. Aegon V was only 9 years old when he was a squire, for example. Dunk, as I said, was as young as 5. Brandon would have been fighting a kid 6 years younger than him, and much smaller at that, hardly an impressive duel. Using Edmure, even as young as 5 - 10 years old, would have meant scoring points with Hoster, Brandon's father-in-law to be....



I'm really hoping that Winds will give at least one or two hints regarding Edmure's age that will help shorten the gap a little.


Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Ok, I can see the logic there. Thanks for the explanation.



Does it really make sense to use Dunk's example for the minimum age? He was a squire at that age because of his unusual size, something Edmure obviously does not possess.



Also, there's a significant difference between a squire for a hedge knight and a squire for a Lord. I doubt there are any examples of nobly born squires at age 5, or even 7. I'd be surprised if we could find one younger than 8-9. Elmar Frey is the youngest I can think of off the top of my head and he was right in that range, 8-9, when he became Bolton's squire.



Ser Arlan had limited means and limited choices for who his squire could be. Brandon would've had plenty of choices, it is not logical to guess that he went with a 5 year old boy. Not only that, but the vast majority of 5 year old boys are not capable of even lifting the armor (not strong enough) nor buckling things properly (not tall or strong enough). This is only possible for unusually large boys.


Edited by History of Westeros

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There's also the fact that Catelyn says Littlefinger wouldn't forgive Edmure for having acted as Brandon's squire. Would Petyr feel that way if Edmure was only 5 year old ?

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There's also the fact that Catelyn says Littlefinger wouldn't forgive Edmure for having acted as Brandon's squire. Would Petyr feel that way if Edmure was only 5 year old ?

That's a good point. Edmure went to visit Petyr when he was recovering from his wound and was told to go away.

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I can see the reasoning for Dunk's size having been an important factor. I'll make a list of all known squire, pages, and knight ages, to find the minimums for those.. I have partial notes for that already.. For knights, I currently use the minimum age of 15, because of Jaime having been knighted at that age, and it sounds that that was kind of a special thing on its own.. Daemon Blackfyre's knighthood at 12 years of age, are seen as an exception.. Perhaps, when listing all pages and squires, something similar can be done with Dunk.



But like I said, logically thinking, would suggest that Edmure's actual year of birth falls in the middle of the range currently given. He most likely was slightly older than 5, but most likely also some younger than LF, as Catelyn, Lysa and LF went out on trips together with Hoster, whilst Edmure is never mentioned to have joined them, which he most likely would have done, had he been roughly the same age.

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I can see the reasoning for Dunk's size having been an important factor. I'll make a list of all known squire, pages, and knight ages, to find the minimums for those.. I have partial notes for that already.. For knights, I currently use the minimum age of 15, because of Jaime having been knighted at that age, and it sounds that that was kind of a special thing on its own.. Daemon Blackfyre's knighthood at 12 years of age, are seen as an exception.. Perhaps, when listing all pages and squires, something similar can be done with Dunk.

Cool, that sounds like it would be useful. Let me know if I can help.

But like I said, logically thinking, would suggest that Edmure's actual year of birth falls in the middle of the range currently given. He most likely was slightly older than 5, but most likely also some younger than LF, as Catelyn, Lysa and LF went out on trips together with Hoster, whilst Edmure is never mentioned to have joined them, which he most likely would have done, had he been roughly the same age.

That's a good point, there's gotta be at least 3-5 years between them. I can see 10 year old Cat, 8 year old Lysa/LF not wanting to play with 3 year old Edmure. He wouldn't be able to keep up, etc.

On the other hand, he may have just been a really annoying kid and they didn't want him around, haha.

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I was hoping to find more clues to Edmure's age by dating the floppy fish story, but so far that hasn't helped.


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No, indeed, the floppy fish story does not help at all..

 

 

 

A few things:

 

1. Harrold Hardyng (Harry the Heir) has been added to the list :)

 

2. Concerning Jon and Jeyne Waters, the bastard twins of Princess Elaena and Lord Alyn...

Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena, and a much more tumultuous one than her sister Rhaena. The great love of her life was her cousin, Alyn Velaryon, the seafarer and admiral known as Oakenfist, to whom she bore a bastard son and daughter, Jon and Jeyne Waters. She married thrice in later years, twice at a king's behest and once for passion. She gave birth to seven children, then declared that if seven was sufficient for the gods it would do for her as well.

and

Elaena outlived her siblings and led a tumultuous life once freed from the Maidenvault. Following in Daena’s footsteps, she bore the bastard twins Jon and Jeyne Waters to Alyn Velaryon, Lord Oakenfist. She hoped to wed him, it is written, but a year after his disappearance at sea she gave up hope and agreed to marry elsewhere.

She was thrice wed. Her first marriage was in 176 AC, [...]

The first paragraph is from the SSM "Three Maidens in a Tower", the second from the World of Ice and Fire. Can we say with certainty that Jon and Jeyne were born before Elaena's first marriage? The SSM seems to suggest it, but the World Book remains silent on the matter..

 

Opinions?

 

3. Robar Royce is stated to have been Renly's age (b. 277). His younger brother Waymar was born in either 278 AC or 279 AC. Currently, Robar is stated to have been born in 277 AC (roughly). I would like to combine the two, but I have no idea how to do so exactly. Robar can't have been born after 278 AC (because 279 AC is Waymar's last year of birth), but being someone's age doesn't have to mean you are exactly said person's age. It could be he's a year or two younger, or slightly older..

 

Any idea's?

 

4. I've finished the list of ages of pages and squires, as far as could be done (5 main books, D&E, app as far as my notes went, RPGs, TWOIAF, TPATQ and TRP).

I got a few knights in there as well, but as the word "knight" occurs a lot in the books, I haven't checked them all and focussed on "page" and "squire", and only wrote down "knight" when I coincidentally came across it.

Page:

Spoiler

 

  • Boys of 12 can be pages
  • Boys between the ages of 8 and 16 have been accepted as pages and squires by LC Jon Snow
  • Tormund’s son, judged 9/10 years old by Jon Snow, is made a page
  • Podrick Payne, aged 12/13, was a squire. Boys half his age (6/7) are pages, according to Brienne of Tarth
  • Samwell Tarly, at the age of 10, was supposed to become a page and cupbearer
  • Edric Dayne is a page at 7, and a squire at 10.
  • Tommen Baratheon, aged 8, hiding as a page
  • Arya Stark became a page at 10
  • Not long after Tytos and Tywin fought in 252 AC, Kevan (b. 244) was send away as a page to Lord Roger Reyne
  • Jon Arryn and Stannis were planning on making Robert Stannis’ page at the age of 6
  • In 273 AC, the Princess of Dorne was planning on taking, possibly, Jaime Lannister (aged 7) as a page

    Robert Brax, aged 9, a page
  • Red Walder Frey, page at 13/14, squire at 15
  • Wendel Frey, 13, page
  • Willem Frey, aged 9, page

 

The minimum age here seems to be 6.

 

Squire:

Spoiler

 

  • Tywin Frey, squire of 11
  • Red Walder Frey, squire at 14
  • Sandor Frey, 12, squire
  • Hoster Frey, aged 12, squire
  • Willem Frey, b. 289/290, squire in 299/300 AC
  • Boys of 12 can be squires
  • Devan Seaworth (b. 287 AC) was a squire in 299 AC and 300 AC (thus aged 11/12/13)
  • Boys between the ages of 8 and 16 have been accepted as pages and squires by LC Jon Snow
  • Big Walder Frey and Little Walder Frey were both squires at the age of 8
  • Ben Blackwood is 12, offered as a squire
  • Barristan Selmy was a new-made squire at the age of 10
  • Aegon V was made a squire at the age of 9
  • Podrick Payne, aged 12/13, was a squire. Boys half his age (6/7) are pages, according to Brienne of Tarth
  • Doran Martell was a squire at 9
  • Dontos Hollard, aged between 13 and 16, was brought to KL as a squire
  • Robert Arryn, aged 8, is suggested to become Lady Waynwood’s squire
  • Tommen Baratheon is 8, “at his age he should be a squire”
  • Jaime Lannister was a squire from the age 11 to 15
  • Sandor was 6, maybe 7, Gregor 5 years old (11, maybe 12). Gregor was already a squire. Identified in the app as a squire of 12.
  • Lancel and Tyrek Lannister (15 and 11) are squires in 298 AC
  • Olyvar Frey (aged 18) is a squire, expecting a knighthood in good time.
  • Rollam Westerilng is a squire at 9
  • Dickon Tarly, a squire of 10
  • Edric Dayne is a page at 7, and a squire at 10.
  • Elmar Frey a squire at the age of 9
  • Jon Snow becomes a squire at 15
  • Hot Pie and Lommy believed Arya could have been a squire at 9/10
  • Willem Lannister, (12-14) is a squire
  • At Winterfell Bran Stark saw squires between the ages of 10 and 40
  • Wex Pyke is a squire at 12
  • Tywin Lannister wants Tommen, aged 8, to become Jaime Lannister’s squire
  • Prince Viserys (son of Aenys) was a squire of 15
  • Laenor Velaryon was a squire at 19, knighted at 19
  • Jacaerys and Lucerys Velaryon (15 and 14 respecitvely) had “long served as squires”.
  • Early in 129 AC, Aegon the Younger (aged 8) was offered the position of the King’s squire, Viserys (aged 6) a position as curbearer (is this the same as page? Prince Daeron became cupbearer and squire at 12?)
  • Trystane Truefyre a squire of 16 years
  • Joffrey Velaryon, squire at the age of 13
  • Tywin Lannister suggested a 10 year old Jaime as squire for Rhaegar.
  • Daeron the Daring knighted in 130 AC at the age of 15. Had become a squire and cupbearer at the age of 12.
  • Duncan the Tall had become a squire at the age of 5, maybe 6

If we assume Dunk is an exception, the minimum age seems to be 8.

 

Knights:

Spoiler

 

  • Jaime Lannister knighted at 15
  • Loras Tyrell knighted at "the young age of 15"
  • Glendon Ball was made a knight aged 16
  • Quentyn Martell was knighted at 18
  • Waymar Royce, knight at the time of his death at the age of 18
  • Aemon Targaryen (Dragonknight) joined KG as a knight at 17
  • Harry the Heir made a knight at the age of 18
  • Tywin Lannister was a new made knight in 260 AC, at the age of 18
  • Aerys knighted at 16
  • Daemon Blackfyre, knighted at 12 after winning a squires tourney
  • Daeron the Daring knighted in 130 AC at the age of 15. Had become a squire and cupbearer at the age of 12.

 

Daemon Blackfyre is clearly an exception. The absolute minimum thus seems to be 15, but most likely, one is knighted at an even later age.

 

Thus: once knighted, (and not on the battlefield, whilst dying), a character is at least 15 years old.

 

So, then the new minimums are:

  • Pages: 6 years old or older
  • Squires: 8 years old or older
  • Knights: 15 years old or older

 

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen
Lay-out

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2.

Concerning Jon and Jeyne Waters, the bastard twins of Princess Elaena and Lord Alyn...

Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena, and a much more tumultuous one than her sister Rhaena. The great love of her life was her cousin, Alyn Velaryon, the seafarer and admiral known as Oakenfist, to whom she bore a bastard son and daughter, Jon and Jeyne Waters. She married thrice in later years, twice at a king's behest and once for passion. She gave birth to seven children, then declared that if seven was sufficient for the gods it would do for her as well.

and

Elaena outlived her siblings and led a tumultuous life once freed from the Maidenvault. Following in Daena’s footsteps, she bore the bastard twins Jon and Jeyne Waters to Alyn Velaryon, Lord Oakenfist. She hoped to wed him, it is written, but a year after his disappearance at sea she gave up hope and agreed to marry elsewhere.

She was thrice wed. Her first marriage was in 176 AC, [...]

The first paragraph is from the SSM "Three Maidens in a Tower", the second from the World of Ice and Fire. Can we say with certainty that Jon and Jeyne were born before Elaena's first marriage? The SSM seems to suggest it, but the World Book remains silent on the matter..

Opinions?

First, great work on the squires/knights/pages. That's useful stuff.

Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena

Since we've been trying to figure out if Daena was alive during her son's famous rebellion, this is helpful. It seems she was not, she'd have been ~51 when hostilities broke out. Unless Elaena lived to be 70+ or so (to be fair, this is certainly possible) it's somewhat doubtful Daena was alive when the Blackfyre rebellion broke out. Any idea how long Elaena lived? She certainly outlived all her husbands.

For Jon and Jeyne, I definitely agree they were born before Elaena's first marriage.

Interestingly, she had 4 of her 7 children after age 35. It's said she had no kids with Michael Manwoody, but it seems like she probably couldn't have done so even if she wanted to. Quite likely too old by then.

Edited by History of Westeros

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Jeyne and Jon: I always red "she agreed to marry elsewhere" as that she hadn't been married before. With "She was married trice" continuing where the former sentence had left of.


Also, if Alyn was still around at after Ossifer Plumm's dead, the rumors would probably have been about him being Visery's father (I know that's not a proof).



Robar: "in the years before 279" is the only thing I could come up with. but I think roughly is still better with a more detailed explanation when you read the calculation.



Is there a reason to why Saera (daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne) is the only one of her siblings not to have a year of birth calculation?

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Saera should have been in the list (and now is). Her calculation had been in my notes for multiple months already, but I guess I accidentally skipped her when copy-pasting all in the lists..

Jon and Jeyne will be added later today... Though I still wonder.. "she agreed to marry elsewhere"... Would Aegon IV have given her the choice?

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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As she's described as "willful" and having an often "angry mouth", she might have been able to refuse Aegon for a year until finally giving in.



Is there already a calculation planned for the Starks, known from the family-tree in awoiaf?


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Jon and Jeyne have been added (born in or between 171 AC and 176 AC).







First, great work on the squires/knights/pages. That's useful stuff.




Thanks! :) I'll be checking all the calculations sometime this week to see what needs updating with that info.







Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena



Since we've been trying to figure out if Daena was alive during her son's famous rebellion, this is helpful. It seems she was not, she'd have been ~51 when hostilities broke out. Unless Elaena lived to be 70+ or so (to be fair, this is certainly possible) it's somewhat doubtful Daena was alive when the Blackfyre rebellion broke out. Any idea how long Elaena lived? She certainly outlived all her husbands.





Elaena is said to have been more beautiful at 70 than at 17.. You don´t say such a thing about someone who didn´t live to be 70, at least. So Elaena died at the age of 70, or even later.



Daena clearly didn´t.. Depending on how much longer "a much longer life" is, Daena's death could indeed have occured before the Blackfyre Rebellion.. but there's also still the possibility her death occured after.







Interestingly, she had 4 of her 7 children after age 35. It's said she had no kids with Michael Manwoody, but it seems like she probably couldn't have done so even if she wanted to. Quite likely too old by then.




Yeah, she was 26 or 27 when Viserys was born, and 34 or older with the youngest four. With Jon/Jeyne, she was in her early twenties.


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Over the last few days, I've added Tywald, Tion, Tygett, Damion, Lanna, Lucion, Stafford and Martyn Lannister, and adjusted Edmure Tully in accordance to the discussion above.



More will follow.


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@Rhaenys


Do you know what the birth years of Addam and Alyn Velaryon are based on?





Aegon was 12 to 14 months old at the time of his death,[11] in 283AC (see Death below). Aegon died during the Sack of King's Landing which occured at least 9 months into 283AC (when Robb Stark was born, Eddard Stark was still fighting in the south; see also: Sack of King's Landing calculation).


That shows that no matter if Aegon was 12 months old at the time of his death, or 14 months old, Aegon's birth took place in 282AC.



I don't really get why the Sack of King's Landing occured at least 9 monts into 283AC. But even if that's right, there seems to be some inconsistency.





Aegon Targaryen was thus born in either late 281AC, or early 282AC.



That doesn't fit together with the quote above... I'm a little bit confused. :unsure:


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@Rhaenys

Do you know what the birth years of Addam and Alyn Velaryon are based on?

I don't really get why the Sack of King's Landing occured at least 9 monts into 283AC. But even if that's right, there seems to be some inconsistency.

That doesn't fit together with the quote above... I'm a little bit confused. :unsure:

Addam is mentioned to have been 15 in 129 AC, and as it is a historical source, that should place his birth in 114 AC

Alyn is younger, so 115 AC or later.. I think the wiki took his birth year from the MUSH. I'll change that.

You are right about the Aegon entry. The SSM stating his age at the time of his death previously has been disproven by the World Book. As SSM's are semi-canon, it can occur that their info is no longer applicable. I'll update that entry as well.

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