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People who don't care about "The Big Four"?

The Onion Sleight

By The Onion Sleight,
in General (ASoIaF)

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daggerseiuri Sellsword

daggerseiuri

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I don't see why it bothers people that Jon isn't as "grey" as other characters. In a book where everybody have done terrible, horrible things it's nice to see a character not be in that category. Many of GRRM's characters are a cliche.

Jon is not the only outcast, there's also Tyrion, Dany, Arya, The Hound, Varys, etc...... How does Jon rise waaaaaaaaaay above his rank? Bastards have been known to be Lord Commanders. And Jon has no charisma at all.

Also Jon just got stabbed for trying to leave his post to fight a battle he has no right to fight, he was also about to drag a bunch of men on a suicide mission, than he involves the Watch into politics he's far from a Gary Stu.

Who doesn't have angst in these books and entitlement issues? Have you read Dany, Tyrion, Stannis, Cersei speak about what they think is theirs' by right?

He rises way above his rank in that he's a 16 or 17 year old boy with little battle experience who like, literally just said his vows. I don't mean his being a bastard, that's silly. I mean that he's not an ideal or even a good candidate to lead against an army of the undead, mainly because he's again, so young and inexperienced.

Am I going to keep getting replies telling me to defend my personal feelings? Because I don't have to. I don't like Jon and I don't like Stannis, Robert, Cersei, Brienne, Bran, Shae, The Hound, and I'm soured on Tyrion because he's seemingly a different character.

I think also that you maybe don't get the concept of a grey character. I don't enjoy grey characters because they do bad things. I enjoy them because like real people (and this is key) they do good AND bad things and have their reasons that can make sense, if you're in their shoes.

Characters who are gray = complex and fleshed out.

Characters who are good = boring, but uplifting and usually likeable.

Characters who are bad = boring, unless spectacularly evil, even then only good for shocks. Hard to like.

And please, please don't tell me Jon has no charisma. The very second he deigns to treat the other boys in the watch like people instead of serfs they all like him. His only character flaw is that he's too honorable and sentimental. Guess what isn't really a flaw? Being too good.

Now, I really don't want to argue this. You like who you like and I like who I like and that's just fine.

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PirateVergo Noble

PirateVergo

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Jon and Tyrion are great (even if Tyrion's povs kinda sucks since he left Aegon), Dany is boring as hell and way too arrogant to be liked, Arya is fine but I never loved her that much.





I'd just like to point out that the youngest LC was 10. Again, Jon isn't even in the top 5 of youngest lord commanders ever.




The most funny fact is that being lord commander at 15 is nothing compared to Dany who's queen of many cities have an army and 3 fucking dragons.



But yea people keep crying about being LC too young when she's even younger than him.



Also I would like to point that Daeron who's Jon's hero was a conqueror at the age of 14, same goes for Robb Stark;


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The Wolves Council Member

The Wolves

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He rises way above his rank in that he's a 16 or 17 year old boy with little battle experience who like, literally just said his vows. I don't mean his being a bastard, that's silly. I mean that he's not an ideal or even a good candidate to lead against an army of the undead, mainly because he's again, so young and inexperienced.

Am I going to keep getting replies telling me to defend my personal feelings? Because I don't have to. I don't like Jon and I don't like Stannis, Robert, Cersei, Brienne, Bran, Shae, The Hound, and I'm soured on Tyrion because he's seemingly a different character.

I think also that you maybe don't get the concept of a grey character. I don't enjoy grey characters because they do bad things. I enjoy them because like real people (and this is key) they do good AND bad things and have their reasons that can make sense, if you're in their shoes.

Characters who are gray = complex and fleshed out.

Characters who are good = boring, but uplifting and usually likeable.

Characters who are bad = boring, unless spectacularly evil, even then only good for shocks. Hard to like.

And please, please don't tell me Jon has no charisma. The very second he deigns to treat the other boys in the watch like people instead of serfs they all like him. His only character flaw is that he's too honorable and sentimental. Guess what isn't really a flaw? Being too good.

Now, I really don't want to argue this. You like who you like and I like who I like and that's just fine.

I'm not arguing with you I was discussing a subject with you.

And no you don't have to defend or explain who you like and don't like and why that's your prerogative.

You were pointing out about what you didn't like about Jon and I was also pointing out the many other characters who have the same traits that Jon had and how he isn't the only one with those traits or how he is written.

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JonCon's Red Beard Council Member

JonCon's Red Beard

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Jon is not the only outcast, there's also Tyrion, Dany, Arya, The Hound, Varys, etc...... How does Jon rise waaaaaaaaaay above his rank? Bastards have been known to be Lord Commanders. And Jon has no charisma at all.

The only reason Jon was named Lord Commander is because the other contenders were worst or dangerous.

I don't really think that Arya should be considered alongside Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys. If she's to be included in some kind of "big x" then so should Sansa and, to a lesser extent, Bran.

Agree. Bran is more important than Arya, at least imnsho.

Something funny I found about Arya is how she's a big favourite while Dany gets so much hate for having chapters that (some claim) add nothing to the plot. Arya's chapters after Storm add nothing at all to plot either: not to the game of thrones, not to the fight against the Others. She's also very repetitive about her memories of Syrio's lessons ("Swift as a deer. Quiet as a shadow") while Dany's other motivational phrases are considered annoying. I get that people like she's pretty much Batman, but if she had been training to be Batman in silent through Feast and had no appeared at all, not change would have really happened, storywise at least.

Also, the people she's killing... the NW guy, the Tickler,

Raff

...wow... really, great deaths. I'm sure Westeros will stop to shock at the death of such important characters.

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TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms Landed Knight

TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms

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I love Jon and Arya. I used to be alright with Jon's storyline and character until the middle of ASOS, where I began to really appreciate and like him. I also loved how he turned down the title of Lord of Winterfell, even though he clearly wanted it. Arya is awesome, though I am worried about her. No eleven year old should go through what she has been through. I used to love Tyrion and now think he's ok, and I just dislike Dany (though I think that is because I found her storyline in ADWD so boring and dull).


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Kyoshi Council Member

Kyoshi

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Who are these characters? I followed the books just to see what happened to Edmure...

:leaving:

:lmao:

It's okay to dislike Jon and to find his chapters boring. Very much okay. Same thing with Dany. It just gets slightly shocking when people point to reasons that can pretty much be pinned to the author i.e. Meereen. Or another one I will never understand, because GRRM gave her dragons...I swear to R'hollor I've seen that somewhere.

I liked Tyrion pre-SOS because he hadn't killed singers out of jealousy, raped a bed slave, expressed desire to rape and kill his sister, and basically never showed any discernible remorseful feeling about killing his father or any of the above-mentioned actions.

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Kyoshi Council Member

Kyoshi

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Calling Tyrion/Arya/Jon boring when you like Daenerys is extremely funny you don't think so?

Daenerys is not boring. Not by a long shot. Her arc in Meereen just bores people. Quentyn is someone I would describe as boring. I strongly dislike Tyrion but even he's not boring. His chapters in ADWD are boring because nothing happens, but Tyrion himself is not boring.

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The Onion Sleight Council Member

The Onion Sleight

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I don't really think that Arya should be considered alongside Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys. If she's to be included in some kind of "big x" then so should Sansa and, to a lesser extent, Bran.

I agree that Bran's more important, I picked her because she has alongside with them the most chapters (she's actually the only one who appears in all books) and is always considers as a generally beloved and prominent character.

The only reason Jon was named Lord Commander is because the other contenders were worst or dangerous.

Agree. Bran is more important than Arya, at least imnsho.

Something funny I found about Arya is how she's a big favourite while Dany gets so much hate for having chapters that (some claim) add nothing to the plot. Arya's chapters after Storm add nothing at all to plot either: not to the game of thrones, not to the fight against the Others. She's also very repetitive about her memories of Syrio's lessons ("Swift as a deer. Quiet as a shadow") while Dany's other motivational phrases are considered annoying. I get that people like she's pretty much Batman, but if she had been training to be Batman in silent through Feast and had no appeared at all, not change would have really happened, storywise at least.

Also, the people she's killing... the NW guy, the Tickler,

Raff

...wow... really, great deaths. I'm sure Westeros will stop to shock at the death of such important characters.

I always thought she's absolute Ezio Auditore da Firenze from Assassin's Creed (AC II, Brotherhood and Revelations)!

(Btw, I agree with very much you said.)

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Kyoshi Council Member

Kyoshi

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Love Tyrion and Dany like Arya don't like Jon mostly because of his obcessed fans that don't see nothing more

So do you dislike Jon himself or is it the fans you dislike?

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jon rhaegar stark Council Member

jon rhaegar stark

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Jon and Tyrion are great (even if Tyrion's povs kinda sucks since he left Aegon), Dany is boring as hell and way too arrogant to be liked, Arya is fine but I never loved her that much.

The most funny fact is that being lord commander at 15 is nothing compared to Dany who's queen of many cities have an army and 3 fucking dragons.

But yea people keep crying about being LC too young when she's even younger than him.

Also I would like to point that Daeron who's Jon's hero was a conqueror at the age of 14, same goes for Robb Stark;

this whole book is set where the characters start very young and GRRM himself said that he might have made an mistake introducing them younger and like the show he should have shown them as old enough

so anyone who does anything will be younger to do so

what i dont like is why you have to jump at Danny when speaking about Jon as LC....those are two different situations ...its obvious that you hate Danny and you dont have to pick everything she does ....

she gave birth Dragons herself and obtained an army of unsullied herself and she takes a city with an army....so its seems fair she calls queen herself ..

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