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People who don't care about "The Big Four"?

The Onion Sleight

By The Onion Sleight,
in General (ASoIaF)

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Nictarion Council Member

Nictarion

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The most funny fact is that being lord commander at 15 is nothing compared to Dany who's queen of many cities have an army and 3 fucking dragons.

Also I would like to point that Daeron who's Jon's hero was a conqueror at the age of 14, same goes for Robb Stark;

Daenerys is queen of ONE city. Meereen.

Those are bad examples considering they both died as teenagers.

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PirateVergo Noble

PirateVergo

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Those are bad examples considering they both died as teenagers.

What make you think that Jon isn't dead? Yes he won't stay dead but he could die again after or during the war against the others.

Both Robb and Daenerys have done more than Jon so far and are more unrealistic than he is.

Dany is conquering three cities with Dragons and an army. You might not like her chapters but she's not boring at all.

This is the opposite Daenerys IS boring as a character, her story wasn't boring until ADWD but in this book both Daenerys and the Meereen storyline are just uninteresting.

And my main reason to dislike Dany is that I can't stand how arrogant she is and I hate even more how she idealize her family + hate on people she does not even know (Ned Stark).

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Kyoshi Council Member

Kyoshi

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I don't like him but his fans obcession trying to make him perfect and only hero in the story is just annoying and make me hate him

But you read the story yourself. You've seen him on the page so to speak. Why should someone else trying to make him perfect influence you? It's not Jon going around campaigning for himself. I've also come to the conclusion that I may, sadly, never understand why exactly you hate Jon.

LOL. As I was writing that I realised that I'm probably one of those fans you're talking about. Sorry about that. Can't help it. I'm genuinely intersected in knowing why people hate Jon.

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Loge Council Member

Loge

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I don't agree with the 'big four' premise. Bran should definitely be included, and probably Sansa too, though i don't see her play a part in the big fight with the Others. Not sure what Arya is being groomed for either. But those have all been POV from day one. And yes, everybody is too young for what they are doing. That's the consequence of dropping the five year gap.



The problem with Dany's story arc is that it's all set in Essos so far, and that setting is rather contrived and artificially exotic while Westeros is based on real life medieval Europe and therefore feels more real. She has been rather disconnected too. I guess GRRM didn't want her to appear out of the blue in book 6, though that's how it will appear to most people in Westeros.



And of course, the whole Game of Thrones part of the story got way too big, leaving most of the original POV characters sidelined and essentially just waiting for their big entry.


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The Onion Sleight Council Member

The Onion Sleight

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I don't agree with the 'big four' premise. Bran should definitely be included, and probably Sansa too, though i don't see her play a part in the big fight with the Others. Not sure what Arya is being groomed for either. But those have all been POV from day one. And yes, everybody is too young for what they are doing. That's the consequence of dropping the five year gap.

As I said before, I agree with this^ about Bran (and Sansa), I really do, I just picked her because

- She has the most chapters alongside the others

- She always seems to be very generally beloved, is a prominent face (especially on the show), always on top of favourite characters polls

- I admit, because of this ^ I was even more curious about who dislikes her (or how many).

"Big Four" shouldn't mean their importance, more their presence/prominence.

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Nictarion Council Member

Nictarion

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The Jon's fans that i don't are the ones that can't admit that he has a bad side too..

That's just it though, what bad side? About the worst thing he's done was the taking Gilly's baby from her, but even that was to save another baby.

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Nictarion Council Member

Nictarion

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What about betraying is vows more than once...and being an ass to his fellow recruits..want more?

He was ordered to betray his vows by a superior officer the first time, And being a brat in the first book hardly compares to most of the fucked up shit other characters have done.

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sj4iy Council Member

sj4iy

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He rises way above his rank in that he's a 16 or 17 year old boy with little battle experience who like, literally just said his vows. I don't mean his being a bastard, that's silly. I mean that he's not an ideal or even a good candidate to lead against an army of the undead, mainly because he's again, so young and inexperienced.

Am I going to keep getting replies telling me to defend my personal feelings? Because I don't have to. I don't like Jon and I don't like Stannis, Robert, Cersei, Brienne, Bran, Shae, The Hound, and I'm soured on Tyrion because he's seemingly a different character.

I think also that you maybe don't get the concept of a grey character. I don't enjoy grey characters because they do bad things. I enjoy them because like real people (and this is key) they do good AND bad things and have their reasons that can make sense, if you're in their shoes.

Characters who are gray = complex and fleshed out.

Characters who are good = boring, but uplifting and usually likeable.

Characters who are bad = boring, unless spectacularly evil, even then only good for shocks. Hard to like.

And please, please don't tell me Jon has no charisma. The very second he deigns to treat the other boys in the watch like people instead of serfs they all like him. His only character flaw is that he's too honorable and sentimental. Guess what isn't really a flaw? Being too good.

Now, I really don't want to argue this. You like who you like and I like who I like and that's just fine.

Eh, I would argue that Jon IS a grey character...he simply errs on the side if good. But he makes mistakes and bad decisions like real people do. He's nothing of the goody-two shoes people make him out to be, though. He threatens to kill Gilly's child if she refuses him. He forces Sam away against his will. He has sex with Ygritte and then betrays her. He may have had good reason for all of those things, but his methods are nothing close to perfect or good.

I'm not saying anyone should have to like him, I'm just saying that he's not a standard good hero. He's neutral good, and he therefore does things that may be right, but not necessarily by lawful or fair means. Ned was the goody-two shoes, not Jon.

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