What will break Stannis?

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

LOL. The guy that thinks you can "lose" a claim is mocking other peoples reading comprehension? Too funny.

Anyway Stannis has already done more then any other character in the series. When he saved that moron jon from the wildlings he probably indirectly saved the world. HE can die knowing he made a difference, unlike most everyone else.

I can mock willful ignorance and desperate semantics too if you give me half a chance!

A claim is worthless if you can't enforce it. Stannis has 'lost' his claim by being too weak to see it realized. I'm stating clearly what is shown in the books. You're writing a book in your head and trying to claim I should have read it.

That 'moron' Jon fed, garrisoned and clothed the great Stannis Baratheon and his army to keep Stannis from losing what was left of his power through his own poor planning. That 'moron' went on to do everything possible to hand him the mountain clans so he could keep the idea of his precious throne alive through a conquest he needed a bigger army to even attempt.

What does it say about your precious King if he's totally and utterly dependent on a 'moron' to even try and gain the strength to press his claim? Your own words damn him.

[sj4iy]

Only death will break him. And even death may not be enough.

Blackwater broke him...in fact, I'd say that but for the Melisandre, he would have stayed holed up on Dragonstone starving to death out of depression.

[FireIsMyChampion]

hahahahahaha, what does that have to do with what I posted though? His claim still exists even without any of that.

Gotta be honest, you're even less funny as FireIsMyChampion as you were as Darsh Arya brah brah.

Hahaha you think I'm her? because I likened Stannis to Aerys that's comical and no I'm not her.

From what I've read she was confrotational with you and generally just pissed you off which I suppose was her intention. I've done nothing but try to engage you, his claim is in severe jeopardy if he has no lands surely you must see that as being a negative?.

[E-Ro]

I can mock willful ignorance and desperate semantics too if you give me half a chance!

A claim is worthless if you can't enforce it. Stannis has 'lost' his claim by being too weak to see it realized. I'm stating clearly what is shown in the books. You're writing a book in your head and trying to claim I should have read it.

That 'moron' Jon fed, garrisoned and clothed the great Stannis Baratheon and his army to keep Stannis from losing what was left of his power through his own poor planning. That 'moron' went on to do everything possible to hand him the mountain clans so he could keep the idea of his precious throne alive through a conquest he needed a bigger army to even attempt.

What does it say about your precious King if he's totally and utterly dependent on a 'moron' to even try and gain the strength to press his claim? Your own words damn him.

No, you don't ever "lose" a claim, that is not semantics, its hard reality. Just because you cant enforce it doesn't mean you don't have it, I mean what manner of nonsense is that? You clearly have little idea of what you are talking about here, yet your condescending attitude only makes this all the more funny. A claim might be worthless if you cant enforce it, but your nonsensical assertion that you can "lose" a claim is bullshit.

And anyway, he has the support of the ironbank, a blank check to gather as many sellswords as he needs, and enough men at the moment to get him through the next battle. That is more then enough for now.

As for jon, yes it is a testament to Stannis that he can make excellent use of even the most useless of tools in the form of jon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Stannis' claim is being Robert's brother. That's why people support him, because some do believe (accurately, but in story, there is no way to prove it) that Robert's children aren't really his, so, the throne belongs to Stannis. That's why people support him, because he's next in line. To have a claim, you need to have something to support that claim. Even Renly, whose claim was minor than Stannis' had a chance because he was Robert's brother. Otherwise, the Tyrells could have simply tried a chance themselves. They had the strength to do it, so, why not?

Dany and Aegon also have a claim because there are some who believe the IT belongs to the Targaryens and Robert usurped it. Having dragons and the Golden Company wouldn't actually serve any purpose if people don't believe they are who they claim to be: Targaryens descending from the last King.

But that's it. People don't lose a claim. You can lose your right, though.

[Ygrain]

And the ''true steel'' became a fat, wife beating drunk because some hotter guy ran away with a girl he fancied yet had barely even seen. I'm really not sure who was more brittle than the other at all. Almost all the charatcers in the story would have broken if that happened to them, I'm sure of it.

And I'm also really not sure that he was spot on about Renly either. He managed to gather the most powerful army of the story and his plans were fairly clever.

And we know he wasn't spot on for Stannis, since he has made several compromises in the story already.

So yeah, basically IMO Noye was kinda full of himself. The fact he had not even seen the Baratheon brothers in years also doesn't help.

Then ask yourself what happens with a steel sword out of use. Try to consider what tough but brittle means, and if Noye really spoke solely of compromising. Think what it was that brought Renly his support.

[Fat Mac]

It's like a Clash of Kings never happened to you people. He was smashed on the Blackwater and spent the majority of the next book sucking his thumb on Dragonstone.

Blackwater broke him...in fact, I'd say that but for the Melisandre, he would have stayed holed up on Dragonstone starving to death out of depression.

Except he's still fighting so he didn't truly break did he?

[LordCouture]

Blackwater broke him...in fact, I'd say that but for the Davos, he would have stayed holed up on Dragonstone starving to death out of depression.

FIFY

[-Winterfellian-]

I guess what I'm saying is that in this type of scenario I see him going out with a sword in his hand/assassinated rather than bending the knee or becoming anyone's subservient lord. I agree I don't see him taking it lightly if someone or something threatens his claim.

I see what you mean but I don't really see Stannis going down on a glorious fashion, but rather the complete opposite.

This is a guy who figuratively has already made a pact with the devil, has murdered his brother, allowed burnings and the desacration of religious elements or imagery to placate his fanatic followers, has consistently made gymnastics with the laws (his law abidibg rigurosity was one of the things that marked his character if reports are to be believed) In short he has stray farther and farther from the "right" path so to speak all in pursuit of the IT while at the same time being fed up that he is some deliverer from darkness. I can see him rather adopting a path closer to villany rather than giving up what for him matters the most- his rights/claim. This is why for me Stannis is a man who will break before he bends.

I expect some of his most questionable deeds to come bite him in the ass aooner rather than later

[Ygrain]

I expect that some of is most questionable deeds to come bite him in the ass sooner rather than later

I think we might have some even more questionable deed coming.

[Jasta11]

Then ask yourself what happens with a steel sword out of use. Try to consider what tough but brittle means, and if Noye really spoke solely of compromising. Think what it was that brought Renly his support.

Out of use? Robert didn't become fat out of use, he did because in his own words he hates being King and the responsibilities that come with it, and he let himself go because he thought Ray-Man had robbed him of his dream girl. Noye didn't speak solely of compromising, but ''bending'' has multiple possible meanings, and one of them in popular understanding of Stannis IS that he's uncompromising which is blatantly false. Renly bought his support by marrying someone thanks to his birth and claim, like, well, almost everyone in the series, so I have no idea what your point is there.

[GreatGatsby]

death

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

No, you don't ever "lose" a claim, that is not semantics, its hard reality. Just because you cant enforce it doesn't mean you don't have it, I mean what manner of nonsense is that? You clearly have little idea of what you are talking about here, yet your condescending attitude only makes this all the more funny. A claim might be worthless if you cant enforce it, but your nonsensical assertion that you can "lose" a claim is bullshit.

And anyway, he has the support of the ironbank, a blank check to gather as many sellswords as he needs, and enough men at the moment to get him through the next battle. That is more then enough for now.

As for jon, yes it is a testament to Stannis that he can make excellent use of even the most useless of tools in the form of jon.

A couple of things- I'm not being condescending, I'm being snarky. I'm making jokes to try and lighten the mood in an otherwise combative thread. The reading comprehension crack was to a guy who made a statement that me saying Jon could be AA was a crazy theory, when it's beyond obvious in the text that he's linked heavily to AA. I made another playful joke toward you after you decided to take issue with it. Stannis misses subtlety too, so I can see why you dig him so much.

You are playing at semantics by your constant complaining about my choice of the word 'lose'. By any realistic measure- being stripped of his lands and being declared a rebel Lord by his OWN house who sits on the throne, losing those lands to fAegon and the Tyrells makes the word 'lost' the correct one.He has lost it in every sense of the word except in the technical way you're clinging to. Stannis has a claim to the Storm Lands and the Iron Throne in the same way Moonboy does. If he's strong enough, he can take it. If not, well, those claims are lost to him.

It's never occurred to you what could happen if someone else takes the Throne like fAegon, has it? If he will agree to pay the crown's debt, what happens to Stannis' support from the Iron Bank then? All they want is their money back. If someone else takes the throne, they won't need to pin their hopes on Stannis to get it.

As for Jon being a useless tool, dumb troll is dumb. You've even back-handedly admitted that Jon is likely the one to save the world, and took pride in the fact Stannis has participated.

You seem to think I have animosity toward Stannis when I really don't. He's a good character, and I respect the guy for trying to defend what he perceives as his realm in the face of nobody actually supporting him to be king except his loyal retainers. He's got his flaws, and he's done things that even he can barely live with by his own admission. One of those flaws is being too weak to realize his potential as King of Westeros. That can't be lost on you.

There, I've made one last attempt at a good faith back-and-forth. If you choose to press your attack over a single word and your issue with it's usage, so be it.

[sj4iy]

Except he's still fighting so he didn't truly break did he?

He was broken. He simply had people there to push him back into the fray.

[Ygrain]

Out of use? Robert didn't become fat out of use, he did because in his own words he hates being King and the responsibilities that come with it, and he let himself go because he thought Ray-Man had robbed him of his dream girl. Noye didn't speak solely of compromising, but ''bending'' has multiple possible meanings, and one of them in popular understanding of Stannis IS that he's uncompromising which is blatantly false. Renly bought his support by marrying someone thanks to his birth and claim, like, well, almost everyone in the series, so I have no idea what your point is there.

Yes, out of use. Robert was born a warrior, battle was his natural element. He was a great man back then, or else he would never have won Ned's admiration.

Noye was a smith. The difference between steel and iron is how they respond to pressure or impact. Steel has more elasticity, it bends and then springs back to its original shape, whereas iron breaks or shatters. That does not mean that steel is indestructible, and too much pressure breaks even steel.

Renly's main attribute is his good looks and personal charm, but he never showed real spine. That's why he is copper, shiny but soft.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes, out of use. Robert was born a warrior, battle was his natural element. He was a great man back then, or else he would never have won Ned's admiration.

I thought it was the muscles and the fact he was a maiden's fantasy. U_U

Noye was a smith. The difference between steel and iron is how they respond to pressure or impact. Steel has more elasticity, it bends and then springs back to its original shape, whereas iron breaks or shatters. That does not mean that steel is indestructible, and too much pressure breaks even steel.

Renly's main attribute is his good looks and personal charm, but he never showed real spine. That's why he is copper, shiny but soft.

My problem with Noye's statement is that while he's not completely wrong, he's not completely accurate either. It's only a superficial interpretation of the Baratheon brother's personalities, but not an absolute description.

Stannis's inflexibility applies to his morals and ethics: for instance, he's never going to be a corrupt man in the same way Littlefinger is, and law and justice are absolute for him. But he has proven to compromise when it's needed, as many of us have pointed out above. And Robert, while he's an easygoing man who is able to forgive and forget, is blindly resentful to anything Targaryen-related. Just look how differently he treated the Merryweathers from the Conningtons, or the Darrys from the Tyrells.

Noye probably didn't get to know Renly better, or did when he was still a kid. Putting rights and claims aside, I think Renly could have matured into a good King, having both of his brothers' better qualities: being just and charismatic. He only needed a good man guiding him, and I guess Ned could have been that man. Power change people but not always is a bad thing. Egg, for example, had a terrible opinion of bastards in general, and later, he named Dunk, a lowborn bastard, Lord Commander of his KG, and even named his first son after him. There is no indication that Renly couldn't have actually improved into a better man.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

My problem with Noye's statement is that while he's not completely wrong, he's not completely accurate either.

With Noye, his view is severely colored by who he is- a smith and a soldier. He's putting his military bent onto the brothers in this statement, else it's hard to reconcile Robert as 'true steel'. I think for Noye, he's ranking them to Jon by their martial abilities. He clearly thought Robert was best, and Renly was the worst. Which doesn't make Renly bad, only bad compared to Robert in this context. And from what we know, most of the realm probably fell under that same category. Robert was a martial prodigy.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that Renly was a bad guy. If anything it's that he was a bad brother. His tragedy is that no one will ever know how he turns out or what he becomes because Melisandre convinced Stannis to murder him via sorcery.

[James Arryn]

Yes, out of use. Robert was born a warrior, battle was his natural element. He was a great man back then, or else he would never have won Ned's admiration.

Noye was a smith. The difference between steel and iron is how they respond to pressure or impact. Steel has more elasticity, it bends and then springs back to its original shape, whereas iron breaks or shatters. That does not mean that steel is indestructible, and too much pressure breaks even steel.

Renly's main attribute is his good looks and personal charm, but he never showed real spine. That's why he is copper, shiny but soft.

So, the reasoning is that time/usage is logically more of a factor for change when discussing a teenager than a 6 year old boy?

Anyhow, re:spine, he stood up to Cersei/Joff when no one else was doing so, he stayed by Robert's side when Stannis didn't, he offered to personally lead 50 men in an attack on the Red Keep to secure Ned's Regency, he forged the greatest claim to the throne, lead an eminently praised and praiseworthy campaign and personally lead an aggressive advance to trap Stannis between himself and SE, which necessitated the first introduction of the supernatural into the Game to prevent.

[Ygrain]

So, the reasoning is that time/usage is logically more of a factor for change when discussing a teenager than a 6 year old boy?

Anyhow, re:spine, he stood up to Cersei/Joff when no one else was doing so, he stayed by Robert's side when Stannis didn't, he offered to personally lead 50 men in an attack on the Red Keep to secure Ned's Regency, he forged the greatest claim to the throne, lead an eminently praised and praiseworthy campaign and personally lead an aggressive advance to trap Stannis between himself and SE, which necessitated the first introduction of the supernatural into the Game to prevent.

I must be getting the word wrong. How is plotting to replace Cersei in Robert's bed standing up to Cersei? And, can you point me how Renly's presence was actually of use to Robert? Or where is his campaign praised? And what is it praised for?

[Jasta11]

Yes, out of use. Robert was born a warrior, battle was his natural element. He was a great man back then, or else he would never have won Ned's admiration.

Noye was a smith. The difference between steel and iron is how they respond to pressure or impact. Steel has more elasticity, it bends and then springs back to its original shape, whereas iron breaks or shatters. That does not mean that steel is indestructible, and too much pressure breaks even steel.

Renly's main attribute is his good looks and personal charm, but he never showed real spine. That's why he is copper, shiny but soft.

That's changing the element he was in. ''out of use'' implies he was in so many battles he became unable to do it anymore, which was not the case. Plus, given that Robert never recovered his greatness, he doesn't fit the definition in any way I can see post RR. Sorry, but I just completely fail to see how one can look at a fat, drunk, irresponsible wife-beater (I actually kinda like Robert but that's what he was) and think ''yeah, that guy represents the True Steel!''.

No spine? He did suggest a daring course of action to Ned and then went in open war against the Crown, the one that has such wonderful and forgiving fellows as Tywin Lannister behind it. He might not be suicidally brave like Loras , but in no way did I ever see anything to indicate Renly lacked a spine.