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Lady Barbrey

Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree

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Hey, that's true, I thought he competed but he had been sent back. Well, that's a pretty damn good alibi. He sure as hell was not riding alone so there is no way he could have absconded. And again, he wouldn't have dealt with the squire that way. He'd have trashed them on the spot.

He could easily have been travelling alone - why not? And if not, he would have been in charge. He's a Kingsguard. He doesn't have to 'abscond' from anyone. Just say 'stay here, I have something to do'. He wasn't under guard.

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Hey, that's true, I thought he competed but he had been sent back. Well, that's a pretty damn good alibi. He sure as hell was not riding alone so there is no way he could have absconded. And again, he wouldn't have dealt with the squire that way. He'd have trashed them on the spot.

That's ignoring the fact that Lyanna already dealt with the squires by the time Jaime enters the lists. His primary reason is to fight for honour. The added embarrassment to Merrett Frey and his bully friends, if that's who they were, being publicly chastised by their own knights would just add some sauce to an already good adventure.

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That's why I didn't consider it at first because I thought somewhere I read he was tall already at 15 but I couldn't find the reference. Where does it say he was tall at 15?

I don't think his height at that age is explicitely stated anywhere, but at 13 as a squire he won a melee against grown men. He must have been big and strong for his age to achieve that. Also, Joffrey is said to take after him in appearance, and he was tall for his age.

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When Aerys orded the knight to remove his helmet, he/she refused. Then Aerys ordered Rhaegar to discover the identity of the knight. By the end of the tourney Rhaegar was crowning Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Lyanna being the knight of the laughing tree fits so well with R+L=J, Rhaegar first meets Lyanna while investigating the knight and that's when they fall in love, I think it has to be Lyanna.

And he couldn't have met Lyanna any other way at the tournament?

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That's ignoring the fact that Lyanna already dealt with the squires by the time Jaime enters the lists. His primary reason is to fight for honour. The added embarrassment to Merrett Frey and his bully friends, if that's who they were, being publicly chastised by their own knights would just add some sauce to an already good adventure.

One of the squires was a squire to a knight of House Frey, it is never stated that the squire was a member of House Frey himself. Also, Merrett, by this time, had already been hit on the head, and had been send back to the Twins because he was uncapable of finishing his training as a squire, nor could he ever be knighted due to his injury, so it definitively wasn't him.

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I don't think his height at that age is explicitely stated anywhere, but at 13 as a squire he won a melee against grown men. He must have been big and strong for his age to achieve that. Also, Joffrey is said to take after him in appearance, and he was tall for his age.

Tall for his age and as tall as a grown man don't really equate. The description Meera gives could fit a normal crannogman, a tallish teenager not yet 18 (when most boys stop growing), or a short man. Regarding Jaime's prowess, we've been told he was a wunderkind so that doesn't mean he had to be a man-sized 13 year old.

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One of the squires was a squire to a knight of House Frey, it is never stated that the squire was a member of House Frey himself. Also, Merrett, by this time, had already been hit on the head, and had been send back to the Twins because he was uncapable of finishing his training as a squire, nor could he ever be knighted due to his injury, so it definitively wasn't him.

I read this too and only broach the possibility that Merrett was serving as a squire still for the Freys though he would never be knighted. I don't think it is definitive though you are likely right.

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It's very obviously Lyanna. It fits too neatly: how she and Rhaegar met, why he crowned her QoLaB. Why Jojen and Meera are surprised that Bran hasn't heard the story, because it's actually a Stark family story.

The booming voice to me has always been a clear affectation; someone artificially lowering their voice and throwing it, which Lyanna would've done.

If it were Ned, it doesn't explain the need to keep his identity a secret. And Jaime never thinks of himself as being the knight, despite recalling the Harrenhal tournament.

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I started this not overly convinced myself but the more people tell me their objections to Jaime the more I'm getting convinced this could be a viable alternate theory to the Lyanna theory. None of the objections so far really hold water, and there's enough textual evidence to make it a possibility. I particularly like the post stating that Jaime never reveals the true circumstances of Aerys's death to anyone for years after it happened. He can keep his mouth closed about his own bravery. And that's completely in line with his code of honour that he still clings so tightly to despite his more vicious actions.

I hated Jaime as a character at the beginning, then saw the redemptive qualities in him as time went on, but I've not paid him as much attention as most of the other characters. But if he is the KotLT, he is much more interesting to me in terms of the overall story and possibly a more important character than I realized for the end game.

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It's very obviously Lyanna. It fits too neatly: how she and Rhaegar met, why he crowned her QoLaB. Why Jojen and Meera are surprised that Bran hasn't heard the story, because it's actually a Stark family story.

The booming voice to me has always been a clear affectation; someone artificially lowering their voice and throwing it, which Lyanna would've done.

If it were Ned, it doesn't explain the need to keep his identity a secret. And Jaime never thinks of himself as being the knight, despite recalling the Harrenhal tournament.

:agree:

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I started this not overly convinced myself but the more people tell me their objections to Jaime the more I'm getting convinced this could be a viable alternate theory to the Lyanna theory. None of the objections so far really hold water, and there's enough textual evidence to make it a possibility. I particularly like the post stating that Jaime never reveals the true circumstances of Aerys's death to anyone for years after it happened. He can keep his mouth closed about his own bravery. And that's completely in line with his code of honour that he still clings so tightly to despite his more vicious actions.

I hated Jaime as a character at the beginning, then saw the redemptive qualities in him as time went on, but I've not paid him as much attention as most of the other characters. But if he is the KotLT, he is much more interesting to me in terms of the overall story and possibly a more important character than I realized for the end game.

I don't see where the KotLT is at all comparable to Jaime killing Aerys. No one disputes that Jaime killed Aerys; the mystery is why he did so. Whereas the entire identity of the knight is a mystery, not the motives. And I dare say that killing a king is a more serious act than riding as a mystery knight in a tournament. Jaime never thinks of participating in the tourney once Aerys dismisses him, not even indirectly (i.e. he doesn't think of seeing anything at the tournament after being dismissed, not just that he never thinks of being the knight specifically).

Again, it's Lyanna. It's not even that hard to conclude, just another case of people overcomplicating something that really isn't that complicated.

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It's very obviously Lyanna. It fits too neatly: how she and Rhaegar met, why he crowned her QoLaB. Why Jojen and Meera are surprised that Bran hasn't heard the story, because it's actually a Stark family story.

---It is a Stark and Reed family story: how Howland met Lyanna when she beat up his bullies, and then the crown of roses. But Meera and Jojen don't know who the mystery knight is. See point 1. So their surprise is not because he should know his Aunt was the Mystery Knight.

---There is no reason that Rhaegar could not have learned about Lyanna's very real heroism with the squires from the Mystery Knight, sparking his interest in Lyanna and giving her the crown for both embodying true knightly behaviour in her actions, AND inspiring true knightly behaviour because of them on the part of a knight, which is exactly what the Queen of Love and Beauty is supposed to do.

The booming voice to me has always been a clear affectation; someone artificially lowering their voice and throwing it, which Lyanna would've done.

---Yes, that's a valid contention, particularly as we've seen it done before in many films, but anyone, man or woman, if disguising a voice would change it, probably deeper not higher.

If it were Ned, it doesn't explain the need to keep his identity a secret. And Jaime never thinks of himself as being the knight, despite recalling the Harrenhal tournament.

---But his recollection of the Harranhal tournament is for a particular purpose, not to highlight his own bravery but how and where his real disillusionment with knighthood began. I would have to read that section again, but from what I remember just because he thinks about some things and not others in that POV is not proof they couldn't have happened.

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Like others, I agree that Lyanna is tKotLT. It's her story (as much as Howland Reed's--and perhaps more so) as soon as the Tourney portion starts and it even ends with the most famous of stories about Lyanna.



It's Lyanna who saves Howland.


It's Lyanna who cleans Howland's wounds and introduces him to the Stark brothers


It's Lyanna who insists that Howland eat with the Stark brothers.


It's Lyanna who weeps during Rhaegar's song (and dumps wine on Benjen....)


It's Lyanna who points out the three bullies; Benjen offers to loan Howland armor to defend himself, but Howland is torn, which Lyanna recognizes.



It's to the old gods that Howland prays the night before the mystery knight appears, and tKotLT has a weirwood painted on his shield (why would Jamie have that? He's not of the north)



And it ends with nod to "the much sadder story" which is Rhaegar and Lyanna.



If you still think it's Jamie, then why is Jojen so insistent that surely Bran has heard this before? Jamie comes into the story in that he's there but so are a bunch of other lords. It's Lyanna who is at the center.


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It's very obviously Lyanna. It fits too neatly: how she and Rhaegar met, why he crowned her QoLaB. Why Jojen and Meera are surprised that Bran hasn't heard the story, because it's actually a Stark family story.

The booming voice to me has always been a clear affectation; someone artificially lowering their voice and throwing it, which Lyanna would've done.

If it were Ned, it doesn't explain the need to keep his identity a secret. And Jaime never thinks of himself as being the knight, despite recalling the Harrenhal tournament.

Well, Ned doesn't want anyone to know what he can do. So that in itself could be why he kept it a secret. And the "knight of the laughing tree" could be a play on words, the "Night of the laughing tree" ie: The one night when he wasn't serious, as he's always serious. And a Tree, because he worships the Old Gods. In this scenario, Lyanna could have helped armor him and that could be how Rhaegar found out it was Ned.

But... I'm inclined to believe the Knight of the Laughing Tree is someone from the Baratheon line, because of the "Laughing Storm" from THK. Also, Robert Baratheon seems to also have a good humor about him. Maybe there is something to this laughing and fighting?

Sorry if my points don't make much sense, I haven't given this much though, I'm just throwing a few ideas out there.

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I started this not overly convinced myself but the more people tell me their objections to Jaime the more I'm getting convinced this could be a viable alternate theory to the Lyanna theory.

Nothing wrong with that, long as you're fine with being the only one. Your case is very weak, and your line of defense so far has been mostly "there's no one percent definitive proof that it wasn't Jaime", which would be just as good for any named or unnamed character.

By the way, do you happen to know any tall men, who weren't so already at the age of ten-and-five? I don't.

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---But his recollection of the Harranhal tournament is for a particular purpose, not to highlight his own bravery but how and where his real disillusionment with knighthood began. I would have to read that section again, but from what I remember just because he thinks about some things and not others in that POV is not proof they couldn't have happened.

Do you have anything in the books that suggests that Jaime stayed at the tournament after being dismissed? Because your theory pretty hinges on that. And Jaime can become disillusioned with knighthood at the tournament without being the knight. One doesn't necessarily rely on the other.

But... I'm inclined to believe the Knight of the Laughing Tree is someone from the Baratheon line, because of the "Laughing Storm" from THK. Also, Robert Baratheon seems to also have a good humor about him. Maybe there is something to this laughing and fighting?

Robert was one of the guys who went LOOKING for the knight. His build also doesn't fit; the knight is small. Renly was a boy and Stannis hardly seems the type to do this; I don't even recall if either of them were at the tourney. So which other Baratheon would it have been?

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But... I'm inclined to believe the Knight of the Laughing Tree is someone from the Baratheon line, because of the "Laughing Storm" from THK. Also, Robert Baratheon seems to also have a good humor about him. Maybe there is something to this laughing and fighting?

The only Baratheon there is Robert. Meera goes into some good detail about all the important people there. It's just Robert "The Storm Lord;" no mention of a young storm lord (she calls Benjen the young pup--the youngest of the Stark sons so she's not just focusing on heirs).

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But... I'm inclined to believe the Knight of the Laughing Tree is someone from the Baratheon line, because of the "Laughing Storm" from THK. Also, Robert Baratheon seems to also have a good humor about him. Maybe there is something to this laughing and fighting?

Also bear in mind that the KotLT's shield is a smiling weirwood tree, something strongly associated with the Starks and the North not the Baratheon's.

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The only Baratheon there is Robert. Meera goes into some good detail about all the important people there. It's just Robert "The Storm Lord;" no mention of a young storm lord (she calls Benjen the young pup--the youngest of the Stark sons so she's not just focusing on heirs).

Well, that settles it, it was definitely a joke Ned was playing on Robert Baratheon because of his heritage with the Laughing Storm. Unfortunately, Rhaegar found out first and the joke became spoiled because Ned knew Robert was in love with Lyanna.

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Well, that settles it, it was definitely a joke Ned was playing on Robert Baratheon because of his heritage with the Laughing Storm. Unfortunately, Rhaegar found out first and the joke became spoiled because Ned knew Robert was in love with Lyanna.

Ned playing a joke. Does that sound like Ned, at all? Ned Stark? Grim, humorless, honorable, shy, quiet, cant-ask-a-girl-to-dance Ned Stark?

Or does it sound like the "wolf's blood" girl who stopped Howland from being attacked in the first place.

its Lyanna.

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