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Lady Barbrey

Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree

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Even being a Bastard he had a rich kid upbright, was hand of the King and LC. I guess he can hold a stick and ride a horse just fine. Looser Howland becoming awesome after 1 night might be suspicious. The booming voice might just be the result of BR talking throught Howland.

What we know that can point to BR/Old Gods is that the story start Howland traveling to the Isle of Face instead of just skipping the part and start at the tourney. Then it is mentionned Howland made a prayer to the olds god before the KotLT appear.Then we have the Shield: "A white weirwood" doesnt that says BR even a little bit to you?

Albinos + Weirwood + His Mother's sigil(Raven on Blood + A white Weirwood). The KotLT disappeared into a tree (his shield was found in a tree). + Possible important discussion with Rhaegar in the wood.

This is not important if he warged Howland specifically but,imo, BR is surely involved one way or another. Be it by warging Howland,Lyanna, random man #1232, being some clay monster, or 30 ravens inside an armor or anything.

He could have just seen the event from a tree. I don't doubt that he's been watching pretty much everything for a long time now. And Harrenhal turns out to be very important for a lot of reasons, so I'm sure he "visited" the time.

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I still think Lyanna was the KotLT (it would just make more sense to me), but I must admit you made a much better case for it than I thought you would. Well done.


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Jojens reaction asking Bran if he had heard the story and such, as well as Howlands loyalty to Ned, and Neds overall character made me feel like it could have been Ned, but I really don't see how Jaime would have even known about the incident.

If the squires at fifteen were all bigger than Howland, then Ned at eighteen would be even bigger.

Which is certainly no proof he came back undercover. Or didn't.

But let's just say it weigh in favour that he was not the KLT.

He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late. He had said the words whilst half the realm looked on, and a Kingsguard served for life.

This part shows that he didn't take off the white cloak, which would have been essential for the disguise, and that he took the KG vows seriously. He kept the line and didn't rebel until the Sack.

Coincidentally, I was reading the chapter where Jaime leaves Harrenhal right before I saw this. Going back over it again, there In the present the party continues on and comes across a burned inn that Jaime also remembers. He ate dinner there when was journeying away from Harrenhal the first time. So we know that he originally got that far at least. Perhaps he went all the way back to Kings Landing and he would have recognized landmarks from his previous trip all the way home... however, due to his actions in the present, we get no more confirmation of that.

It's curious, however, that the chapter is arranged in such a way. Jaime is essentially taking two trips, one in the past and one in the present. Because of his actions in the present, our knowledge of his journey in the past ends. In the present he turns back and rushes to Harrenhal to do something brave and stupid... But what if his actions in the present is a reflection of his actions in the past? That intriguing notion is why I can't completely dismiss your theory.

The road led them through a burned village. It must have been a year or more since the place had been put to torch. The hovels stood blackened and roofless, but weeds were growing waist high in all the surrounding fields. Steelshanks called a halt to allow them to water the horses. I know this place too, Jaime thought as he waited by the well. There had been a small inn where only a few foundation stones and a chimney now stood, and he had gone in for a cup of ale. A dark-eyed serving wench brought him cheese and apples, but the innkeep had refused his coin. “It’s an honor to have a knight of the Kingsguard under my roof, ser,” the man had said.

If Jaime was to be revealed as KotLT, I'd say that by now, there should have been a casual cryptic remark hinting that he returned, but to my best memory, I am not aware of any.

Also, we could say that Jaime obeying the order and going to KL set him on the path that led to him becoming the Kingslayer and a monster. By not going to KL this time, he broke the vicious circle and started his redemption arc.

Even being a Bastard he had a rich kid upbright, was hand of the King and LC.

I didn't say that he never trained, I'm asking if he was any good at it. Sometimes, people just lack an aptitude for a particular skill. Not being a good jouster has no effect on the abilities of becoming a Hand and LC.

Looser Howland becoming awesome after 1 night might be suspicious.

This doesn't make sense. No-one knows that Howland cannot joust, because getting beaten while on foot by three guys bigger than him has absolutely no relation to his jousting skills. The Starks apparently don't think it's related, or else they wouldn't offer to help him take part in the tourney, and hardly anyone else knows about the incident.

The booming voice might just be the result of BR talking throught Howland.

That's funny, when Bran says 'Hodor' through Hodor, his voice doesn't boom. One would think that Bloodraven as a more experienced warg should have no problem with the voice, either.

What we know that can point to BR/Old Gods is that the story start Howland traveling to the Isle of Face instead of just skipping the part and start at the tourney. Then it is mentionned Howland made a prayer to the olds god before the KotLT appear.

Oh, I do believe that the Isle of Faces and old gods are important just fine, I just don't think that it is in the way you suggest. Just recently, I ran into a comment by GRRM that the Isle of Faces will play some role, so 1) it needs to be introduced somehow, and 2) the role may be related to R+L, so it makes even more sense that it is introduced in a story cocnerning Lyanna.

Then we have the Shield: "A white weirwood" doesnt that says BR even a little bit to you?

It all but screams 'old gods' and 'Northerner', not specifically Bloodraven.

Albinos + Weirwood + His Mother's sigil(Raven on Blood + A white Weirwood).

If weirwoods could be any other colour than white, your reasoning would hold more water.

The KotLT disappeared into a tree (his shield was found in a tree).

This is pure fabrication. Finding an item hanging on a tree does not mean that its own disappeared into the tree DnD-style, and we never see such an ability in GRRMth.

Possible important discussion with Rhaegar in the wood.

On that I can agree.

This is not important if he warged Howland specifically but,imo, BR is surely involved one way or another. Be it by warging Howland,Lyanna, random man #1232, being some clay monster, or 30 ravens inside an armor or anything.

While I don't exclude Bloodraven messing with people, I don't think that his involvement had to be warging, as his specialty is rather seeing things ("a thousand eyes and one").

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Interesting idea, but I don't see it. I think it adds some to Jaime's character when you consider how sad he was when he had to ride back to KL alone "to guard an empty castle."

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If Jaime was to be revealed as KotLT, I'd say that by now, there should have been a casual cryptic remark hinting that he returned, but to my best memory, I am not aware of any.

Also, we could say that Jaime obeying the order and going to KL set him on the path that led to him becoming the Kingslayer and a monster. By not going to KL this time, he broke the vicious circle and started his redemption arc.

Well, like I said, the very structure of the chapter would be the clue. We have Jaime's two journeys being a mirror of each other, with Jaime literally walking the path he walked in the past. The recollections of his previous trip stop, so there's no remark either way about him returning or continuing. However, we do have his actions in the present: he suddenly decides to turn back and attempt something crazy. The argument is that Jaime's two journeys don't suddenly cease mirroring each other.

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Well, like I said, the very structure of the chapter would be the clue. We have Jaime's two journeys being a mirror of each other, with Jaime literally walking the path he walked in the past. The recollections of his previous trip stop, so there's no remark either way about him returning or continuing. However, we do have his actions in the present: he suddenly decides to turn back and attempt something crazy. The argument is that Jaime's two journeys don't suddenly cease mirroring each other.

I understand your argument but since the new Jaime is very different from the old Jaime, I'd say that the two journeys have to differ, to avoid repeating the past mistakes and return to the man that he wanted to be before he took the wrong journey.

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Its like people post on here without reading the books now, so many people come up with stuff that's entirely debunked if your aware of the character perspective writing style of the series


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I understand your argument but since the new Jaime is very different from the old Jaime, I'd say that the two journeys have to differ, to avoid repeating the past mistakes and return to the man that he wanted to be before he took the wrong journey.

While I do not think Jaime raced back to the tourney to become the mystery knight, I do think both Jaime's have more in common than you are conceding.

At 15 Jaime is taking the journey crushed by the realization that Ser Jaime was made part of the Kingsguard not for his honor and prowess but as a political tool for insulting and depriving his father of his heir.

Later the older and more cynical Ser Jaime is following the same path from Harrenhal crushed by the loss of his swordhand. The swordhand he felt always defined him. The one which made men fear him even if they called him kingslayer. At this point he is forced to acknowledge he no longer has the martial prowess which has up till now defined his life.

As said, I do not believe he was the knight of the laughing tree. But both times he has journeyed this route from Harranhal, it has coincided with a monumental shift in his views of life. The Ser Jaime who went rushing back to leap down in the bear pit was older and wiser than the newly made Ser Jaime of the Kingsguard. But I find it striking that both of the times he has taken this particular path are both times of great introspection.

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While factually it quite fits, I think there would have been at least something in his thoughts about this, especially when he specifically thinks about the tournament. But he doesn't, so no, I don't believe it.


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I think it was Ned because of the whole "teach your squire honor" thing and the booming voice (lord's voice)

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I think it was Ned because of the whole "teach your squire honor" thing and the booming voice (lord's voice)

Definitely too big at eighteen.

One more thing that goes against Jaime. From his recollection, it seems that he rode alone. If he returned to the tourney, he would have needed a helper to get him the pieces of armour because he really couldn't poke out his already famous and not exactly bland face, and I don't see him sneaking around on his own attempting some disguise, he is too straightforward for something like that.

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... not just a river in egypt.

The idea of Jaime fails in far too many ways, for weirwood symbology, to knowing about the squires, to his own honour and duties.
All those on top of zero clues for. :ack:

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Definitely too big at eighteen.

isn't Ned described as being short by Cat?

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isn't Ned described as being short by Cat?

Shorter and plainer than the awesome Brandon, not short for his age. HR was shorter than fifteen years old squires.

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Coincidentally, I was reading the chapter where Jaime leaves Harrenhal right before I saw this. Going back over it again, there are a few things that could support your theory.

At that moment Qyburn interrupts his thoughts and starts a conversation, so his recollections end for the moment. Whatever else he would have revealed to the readers conveniently ends right there. However, just from that quote we have several intersting things: motive, means, and opportunity.

Motive: He's angry at Aerys for making him a Kingsguard to punish his father instead of rewarding him for his skills and he's resentful of the Kingsguard vows that have basically made him a prisoner for life, but he cannot do anything publicly.

Means: He's a very good, though young, fighter who is riding on a wave of confidence because he helped defeat a famous outlaw.

Opportunity: He is now one of the few important people in Westeros not at the Tourneyment.

Returning to the tourney and entering as a mystery knight allows him to do several things: 1. disobey Aerys and get a little revenge 2. do so without publicly dishonoring himself 3. all the while showing off how good a fighter he is (i.e. proving to himself he's good enough to deserve appointment to the Kingsguard on his own merit, not having anything to do with his father.)

In the present the party continues on and comes across a burned inn that Jaime also remembers. He ate dinner there when was journeying away from Harrenhal the first time. So we know that he originally got that far at least. Perhaps he went all the way back to Kings Landing and he would have recognized landmarks from his previous trip all the way home... however, due to his actions in the present, we get no more confirmation of that.

It's curious, however, that the chapter is arranged in such a way. Jaime is essentially taking two trips, one in the past and one in the present. Because of his actions in the present, our knowledge of his journey in the past ends. In the present he turns back and rushes to Harrenhal to do something brave and stupid... But what if his actions in the present is a reflection of his actions in the past? That intriguing notion is why I can't completely dismiss your theory.

Doorlocks, I stopped reading answers to my post shortly after posting it but am revisiting because of the interesting developments in World. I liked your post a lot because it gets at not only plot evidence but textual evidence, in this case the parallels between the two journeys made by Jaime from Harrenhal. A couple of things in support: in the first case I surmised (original post) that if it were Jaime he might have heard Howland Reed's prayer at the weir wood tree as he himself was leaving for Kings Landing. That way he would know the story of Lyanna's bravery and the weir wood would be a fitting emblem on his shield. Pure speculation of course, but how interesting that when he has his dream about Brienne he is in a state of disillusion and despair, lying on the stump of a weir wood tree, and that he goes back because her true heroism, true Knightliness, inspires him to do so. He has no intention of doing so until then.

So in comparison, why could not the exact same motivation, this time inspired by Lyanna's deeds, have made him return before.

Lastly, something just came out in World that is not definitive but really interesting. Aerys believed the Mystery Knight was Jaime, come back in disregard of his orders, which is why he was so furious. That doesn't mean it was Jaime but to my mind it dismisses a major roadblock to this theory. Much has been said about the MK's height and how Jaime was too tall. But if Aerys believed it was Jaime, then the knight could not have been so small, or Jaime too tall, to rule him out.

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I went back to World just now and it occurs to me that people might object on the grounds that the narrator states that Jaime definitely left the tournament and did not come back. A little later he says that Aerys believed that Jaime did come back as the MK. My objection to the first of these statements is that the unreliable narrator (as proved many times in World)cannot know that Jaime did not come back. Nobody, aside possibly from Rhaegar if he caught up to the MK, does know definitively who the MK was. On the other hand, what Aerys said at the tournament would have been a fact to be relied on. Not that Jaime was the MK but the fact that Aerys believed it and said it. So I put no stock in this possible objection.

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I honestly think it was Benjen Stark. I know it sounds crazy and I don't know if anyone else has explored this theory but these are my reasons.

1. The Cronnogman was bunking with Benjen and prayed before he fell asleep. Benjen would be in an ideal position to hear him.

2. Being really young he would fit the description.

3. The Weirwood on his tree would make total sense because those were his gods. Benjen was a jolly guy too so the smiling kinda fits in.

4. A lot wouldn't be known about his jousting skills because he joined the Night's Watch and didn't participate in the Tourneys as a Brother.

There are loopholes like the booming voice and skills but this idea is based on a strong feeling rather than much thought and logic. I am still open to other possibilities of course. :)

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I am still open to other possibilities of course. :)

...and copy-pasting from thread to thread :rolleyes:

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