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Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree


Lady Barbrey

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There is a beautiful parallel for Lyanna, though it contains a spoiler for Winds

Elia Sand, at the age of 14, is known as a jouster, fond of riding horses, and smelling like one often (indicating she rode horses often).

Lyanna, at the tourney would have been 14 years old as well, and as we know, she rode horses, often, and was mad for them. We've seen her having had training with wooden weapons in the vision Bran sees in Dance.

The paralle to Elia could easily be the last hint towards the Knigts identity before the big reveal..

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Realistically speaking, 14 year old girls would have no chance jousting against adult men. The notion that 'It's all horseback riding' is silly, it takes a lot of arm strenght to steady the lance and aim it properly and having a greater mass helps to stay in the sadlle on impact. Ever seen a renaissance fair where people joust? The people who do that are not 120 pounds! And they are using custom fitted plate, not something pieced together the Seven knows how.



But GRRM is not writing a saga that is all that gritty and realistic despite what other elements of the serie may lead us to think. So even though in real life Lyanna would have gotten destroyed, I am damn sure that in the context of ASoIaF she was indeed the KLT. Not realistic but par for the course for fantasy.



So even though Jaime would be a much more realistic KLT, I don't think it's him.


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There is a beautiful parallel for Lyanna, though it contains a spoiler for Winds

Elia Sand, at the age of 14, is known as a jouster, fond of riding horses, and smelling like one often (indicating she rode horses often).

Lyanna, at the tourney would have been 14 years old as well, and as we know, she rode horses, often, and was mad for them. We've seen her having had training with wooden weapons in the vision Bran sees in Dance.

The paralle to Elia could easily be the last hint towards the Knigts identity before the big reveal..

I think is it a hint that looks like it might work, but

Elia Sand can be a good jouster with people of her size. Besides, she is one of the Sands Snakes so that would work to her advantage: Who would want to cause her a wound and then deal with the Viper?

Realistically speaking, 14 year old girls would have no chance jousting against adult men. The notion that 'It's all horseback riding' is silly, it takes a lot of arm strenght to stead the lance and aim it and having a greater mass helps greatly to stay in the sadlle on impact. Ever seen renaissance fair where people joust? The people who do that are not 120 pounds! And they are using custom fitted plate, not something pieced together the Seven knows how,

But GRRM is not writing a saga that is all that gritty and realistic despite what other elements of the serie may lead us to think. So even though in real life, if Lyanna had attempted to joust against grown men she would have gotten destroyed, I am damn sure that in the context of ASoIaF she was indeed the KLT. Not realistic but par for the course for fantasy.

So even though Jaime would be a much more realistic KLT, I don't think it's him.

I agree that it looks almost impossible that a 14 years old girl could joust against professionals (even bad ones) and beat them. Lyanna was not the Brienne type.

I always have a hard time believing that Lyanna was TKotLT. But I could never read a theory or think of one that suits the tale of the Reeds. I like Jaime theory but there's really not so much to support it right now. But it cannot be ruled out either.

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I agree that it looks almost impossible that a 14 years old girl could joust against professionals (even bad ones) and beat them. Lyanna was not the Brienne type.

I always have a hard time believing that Lyanna was TKotLT. But I could never read a theory or think of one that suits the tale of the Reeds. I like Jaime theory but there's really not so much to support it right now. But it cannot be ruled out either.

My implicit point was that most of the steam of any theory placing Jaime as the KoLT over Lyanna relies on the fact that he is a much more realistic candidate. And he is, by a wild margin!

But realism has nothing to do with this, it's a story, not history. And the text only truly supports Lyanna, IMO. I'd be completely shocked if it was anybody else.

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No, the KotLT was small and Jaime was tall already. The description doesn't fit.

Personally, I think it was Howland Reed himself.

The knight of the laughing tree was described as being short in stature, and I don't recall Lyanna ever being described as short. Plus Reed would have the most motivation, given that it is his honor on the line.

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It's very obviously Lyanna. It fits too neatly: how she and Rhaegar met, why he crowned her QoLaB. Why Jojen and Meera are surprised that Bran hasn't heard the story, because it's actually a Stark family story.

The booming voice to me has always been a clear affectation; someone artificially lowering their voice and throwing it, which Lyanna would've done.

If it were Ned, it doesn't explain the need to keep his identity a secret. And Jaime never thinks of himself as being the knight, despite recalling the Harrenhal tournament.

Pretty much. Jaime, or anybody else for that matter makes no sense narratively.

Jaime would probably try to win the tournament, so he would show up on the next day. He'd also wouldn't use a weirwood tree as his sigil.

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The knight of the laughing tree was described as being short in stature, and I don't recall Lyanna ever being described as short.

She'd be likely to be, at least compared to a man.

We know she was one of the fastest horseman in the land. You know what jockeys have in common? They weight between 100 and 120 pounds! Horses are strong, but not so strong that carrying a 200 pound rider doesn't make them slower than carrying a 120 pound one. If she was that fast, she was likely very light.

I may be committing a bit of a logical sin by arguing elsewhere that realism doesn't apply and so that Lyanna could have jousted against men and now using realism to point out she was likely very light, but hey, it is what it is. ;)

Beside, Ned isn't very tall, I doubt a sister from the same stock wouldn't be of average height for a woman and therefore considered short if mistook for a man.

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She'd be likely to be, at least compared to a man.

We know she was one of the fastest horseman in the land. You know what jockeys have in common? They weight between 100 and 120 pounds! Horses are strong, but not so strong that carrying a 200 pound rider doesn't make them slower than carrying a 120 pound one. If she was that fast, she was likely very light.

I may be committing a bit of a logical sin by arguing elsewhere that realism doesn't apply and so that Lyanna could have jousted against men and now using realism to point out she was likely very light, but hey, it is what it is. ;)

Beside, Ned isn't very tall, I doubt a sister from the same stock wouldn't be of average height for a woman and therefore considered short if mistook for a man.

Riding a horse and jousting arn't the same thing. While Lyanna was a talented rider, I doubt she was holding a lance during any of those instances. Also, Brandon was tall, yet he was from the 'same stock'. And it possible to be small without being short; Domeric Bolton was a better horse rider than Lyanna, and while he isn't described I would assume he was physically like Roose (average height but weak build).

And even if she was short (despite never being described as such), where would she have learned ventriloquism (which would have been necessary to make her voice sound like that of a man with any sort of effectiveness)?

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I went in to this open minded, but it makes no sense to me, since he is a POV character and actually remembers the day of the Tourney, and the old man or whoever saying "Tourney's the other way, Ser" as he's on his way back to King's Landing.


OP, please explain why, in the two books we get a bunch of Jaime chapters, he never even thinks about it? It would be a huge moment in his life, a great source of pride. To never reflect on it, even when reflecting on other events of the day(s) surrounding it?


Makes zero sense at all.

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I think is it a hint that looks like it might work, but

Elia Sand can be a good jouster with people of her size. Besides, she is one of the Sands Snakes so that would work to her advantage: Who would want to cause her a wound and then deal with the Viper?

Well,

“If you would wed, wed,” the Red Viper had told his own daughters. “If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There’s little enough of it in this world. Choose well, though. If you saddle yourself with a fool or a brute, don’t look to me to rid you of him. I gave you the tools to do that for yourself.”

So I doubt that that would be the reason why people wouldn't dare to hurt her ;)
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I've often wondered about that booming voice too. If it was Lyanna, how did she get that voice?

'Cause Meera thought that would make the story sound cooler? We don't have the true story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. We have the story as told to Prince Bran by Jojen and Meera, who hadn't been there in the first place.

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'Cause Meera thought that would make the story sound cooler? We don't have the true story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. We have the story as told to Prince Bran by Jojen and Meera, who hadn't been there in the first place.

That's a tremendously enlightening response. Thank you.

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Its Ned. He was pointed out the squires, heard Howland praying to the old gods, has a battlefield voice when he wants it, noted as shorter than Brandon, and would have training in jousting.

Ned is the main character, the Reeds were certain this tale was told a hundred times. I can't see it being anyone else. Lyanna is unrealistic, Jaime was gone, Howland knew he was unskilled, and anyone else adds nothing to the story.

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Its Ned. He was pointed out the squires, heard Howland praying to the old gods, has a battlefield voice when he wants it, noted as shorter than Brandon, and would have training in jousting.

Ned is the main character, the Reeds were certain this tale was told a hundred times. I can't see it being anyone else. Lyanna is unrealistic, Jaime was gone, Howland knew he was unskilled, and anyone else adds nothing to the story.

That does seem like something Ned Stark would do, and it would explain why the Reeds were so loyal to the Starks. Plus Ned is the only one who would meet the physical descriptions AND have the necessary skills to pull this off.

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Its Ned. He was pointed out the squires, heard Howland praying to the old gods, has a battlefield voice when he wants it, noted as shorter than Brandon, and would have training in jousting.

Ned is the main character, the Reeds were certain this tale was told a hundred times. I can't see it being anyone else. Lyanna is unrealistic, Jaime was gone, Howland knew he was unskilled, and anyone else adds nothing to the story.

Quite the contrary, Ned being the KoTL adds nothing to the story. We already know his character and that he always tries to do the right thing and goes out of his way to help people. However, Ned likes to do things directly and is not a huge fans of secrets so I don't think he would hide his identity or come up with such an elaborate plan if he wanted to punish the squires.

Lyanna makes 1000x more sense narratively. The KoTL story could explain how did Rhae and Lya meet (the king sent Rhaegar to arrest the Laughing Tree); it adds motive to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna at the tourney, it adds weight to elopement version of the story rather than kidnap; it explains why Howland would go with Ned to the ToJ.

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Is there any chance that the KoLT could be Mance Rayder? He was a master of disguise and a worshiper of the Old Gods. That explains the weirwood tree and the laughing face, (he was mocking the kneelers). He was known to sneak down past the wall and was south of the wall when Jon Snow was young. He was a warrior which would fit with in with the success of the KoLT having success in the lists. It fits into his character to do something like this then disappear back up north.


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Is there any chance that the KoLT could be Mance Rayder? He was a master of disguise and a worshiper of the Old Gods. That explains the weirwood tree and the laughing face, (he was mocking the kneelers). He was known to sneak down past the wall and was south of the wall when Jon Snow was young. He was a warrior which would fit with in with the success of the KoLT having success in the lists. It fits into his character to do something like this then disappear back up north.

Mande Ryder wasn't a deserter yet. By this point he was still in the Night's Watch.

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