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Lady Barbrey

Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree

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Is there any chance that the KoLT could be Mance Rayder? He was a master of disguise and a worshiper of the Old Gods. That explains the weirwood tree and the laughing face, (he was mocking the kneelers). He was known to sneak down past the wall and was south of the wall when Jon Snow was young. He was a warrior which would fit with in with the success of the KoLT having success in the lists. It fits into his character to do something like this then disappear back up north.

Mance was still in the Night's Watch when Jon was a boy.

It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. “When you were a brother of the Watch . . .” \

“Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath.” - ASoS p. 101

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Is there any chance that the KoLT could be Mance Rayder? He was a master of disguise and a worshiper of the Old Gods. That explains the weirwood tree and the laughing face, (he was mocking the kneelers). He was known to sneak down past the wall and was south of the wall when Jon Snow was young. He was a warrior which would fit with in with the success of the KoLT having success in the lists. It fits into his character to do something like this then disappear back up north.

"Master of disguise"? He "disguised" himself at Winterfell the first time, by entering a castle filled with people who had never seen him before. He "disguised" himself a second time at Winterfell by doing exactly the same thing..

His only true disguise was the Lord of Bones, which wasn't Mance's doing, but Melissandre's...

Or I'm forgetting one..

Mance was a Black Brother until a few years into Robert's reign..

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Quite the contrary, Ned being the KoTL adds nothing to the story. We already know his character and that he always tries to do the right thing and goes out of his way to help people. However, Ned likes to do things directly and is not a huge fans of secrets so I don't think he would hide his identity or come up with such an elaborate plan if he wanted to punish the squires.

Actually, it might explain why Ned doesn't do things undercover. Remember that he does not remember the tourney in a positive light: he sees it as the first in a series of events that kills off his whole family sans himself and his younger brother Benjen. Perhaps he thinks that him being upfront and honest might have prevented this tragedy.

Lyanna makes 1000x more sense narratively. The KoTL story could explain how did Rhae and Lya meet (the king sent Rhaegar to arrest the Laughing Tree); it adds motive to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna at the tourney, it adds weight to elopement version of the story rather than kidnap; it explains why Howland would go with Ned to the ToJ.

Just because it would validate your Ship does not necessarily mean it would make the story better. I would not be able to classify Lyanna as a 'good' character if she willingly ran away from her family and responsibilities, causing a gruesome war which left millions dead.

Likewise, from a practical standpoint, it makes no sense. As somethingorother stated, Lyanna being the knight of the laughing tree is unrealistic given that she probably never held a lance before and was never described as being short or having a masculine voice.

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Mande Ryder wasn't a deserter yet. By this point he was still in the Night's Watch.

That was the real question I had. I had forgotten the original story from the ASOS, since it's been awhile since I read it. The World Book sparked my interest in this mystery and Mance was the first person to come to mind. I do believe that a lot of signs point to Lyanna though.

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That was the real question I had. I had forgotten the original story from the ASOS, since it's been awhile since I read it. The World Book sparked my interest in this mystery and Mance was the first person to come to mind. I do believe that a lot of signs point to Lyanna though.

Then again, she was never described as being short. Or having a masculine voice. Or having ever held a lance before,

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Then again, she was never described as being short. Or having a masculine voice. Or having ever held a lance before,

Booming, not masculine. Stick your head inside a metal trash can, and film it from the outside. Even without trying to make it sound deep, the metal surrounding makes the voice sound booming. Second, an averaged sized woman would be a short man. Third, she was considered a frickin' centaur, she was so good riding a horse (see Jaime's comments).

I'm also pretty sure she practiced with sword and lance when she thought she could get away with it, but I can't remember the source for why I think that.

For the record, the best jouster in the kingdom is 16, and has a reputation (not developed overnight) as being the best jouster in the kingdom.

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Just because it would validate your Ship does not necessarily mean it would make the story better. I would not be able to classify Lyanna as a 'good' character if she willingly ran away from her family and responsibilities, causing a gruesome war which left millions dead.

Likewise, from a practical standpoint, it makes no sense. As somethingorother stated, Lyanna being the knight of the laughing tree is unrealistic given that she probably never held a lance before and was never described as being short or having a masculine voice.

My comment has nothing to do with whether I approve of Rhaegar or Lyanna's actions or not. It only shows that Lyanna might have met the prince before he named her the QoLaB, so in that light the crowning incident doesn't seem as completely out of the blue as it did before.

I find it hard to believe that 15 year old girl be good with a lance too but in the ASoIaF universe (not our world), jousting is supposedly 75% about horse riding skills and Lyanna has repeatedly been described as excellent at that. None of her opponents were a top tier either.

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The only significance of the booming voice is that whoever was underneath the armour was trying to change his or her voice because they were worried that it might be recognisable.



There's no need to go all forensic on the word booming. Just because Howland would describe the voice booming, doesn't mean that other people witnessing the event would use the same term. Meera is also narrating the story out of memory and could have easily swapped a word here and there.


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Booming, not masculine. Stick your head inside a metal trash can, and film it from the outside. Even without trying to make it sound deep, the metal surrounding makes the voice sound booming. Second, an averaged sized woman would be a short man. Third, she was considered a frickin' centaur, she was so good riding a horse (see Jaime's comments).

I'm also pretty sure she practiced with sword and lance when she thought she could get away with it, but I can't remember the source for why I think that.

For the record, the best jouster in the kingdom is 16, and has a reputation (not developed overnight) as being the best jouster in the kingdom.

Helmets arn't trash cans: they have slits so knights can speak and breathe (you know, fun things like that). Even if a voice is booming, you can still tell whether it is a man's voice or a woman's voice.

Second, the deference between an average height man and an average height woman is only a few in inches. To be the knight of the laughing tree, Lyanna would have needed to have been short even for a woman.

Thirdly, Lyanna was described as using a sword but never described as using a lance. Being good at using a lance requires training, lots and lots of it.

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I've often wondered about that booming voice too. If it was Lyanna, how did she get that voice?

IIRC, Brienne's voice speaking from under the helmet was also booming, and yolkboy ran an experiment with a metal bucket over his head, to the same outcome.

Its Ned. He was pointed out the squires, heard Howland praying to the old gods, has a battlefield voice when he wants it, noted as shorter than Brandon, and would have training in jousting.

Ned is the main character, the Reeds were certain this tale was told a hundred times. I can't see it being anyone else. Lyanna is unrealistic, Jaime was gone, Howland knew he was unskilled, and anyone else adds nothing to the story.

That does seem like something Ned Stark would do, and it would explain why the Reeds were so loyal to the Starks. Plus Ned is the only one who would meet the physical descriptions AND have the necessary skills to pull this off.

Sorry but it doesn't sound like Ned. At. All. What is Ned-like about riding under another name than his own?

Also, being shorter than Brandon doesn't make one exceptionally short. Ned was 18 at HH, a man grown. A short stature would be that of a crannogman, or a boy/girl. That leaves Howland, Benjen and Lyanna, out of whom only Lyanna had 1) superb riding skills as well as 2) reason to hide her identity.

As for unrealistic, this is fantasy world where jousting is 75% horsemanship and where a slender 16 years old Loras is an accomplished tourney champion.

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Sorry but it doesn't sound like Ned. At. All. What is Ned-like about riding under another name than his own.

Also, being shorter than Brandon doesn't make one exceptionally short. Ned was 18 at HH, a man grown. A short stature would be that of a crannogman, or a boy/girl. That leaves Howland, Benjen and Lyanna, out of whom only Lyanna had 1) superb riding skills as well as 2) reason to hide her identity.

As for unrealistic, this is fantasy world where jousting is 75% horsemanship and where a slender 16 years old Loras is an accomplished tourney champion.

Ned is absolutely the type of person to stand up for someone who was being bullied. And Ned was still fairly young, so it is possible that he would not see harm in doing this.

People don't stop growing at age 18, some people continue to grow afterwards.

Lyanna was never described as especially short. She would have to be to match the knight's description.

Jousting is not overly simplified in the book. It also involves armor and timing and countless other things. Loras has been practicing jousting since he was a child, and since he comes from a rich family he can afford the best armor and horses, and he rides mares in heat when he jousts.

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Helmets arn't trash cans: they have slits so knights can speak and breathe (you know, fun things like that). Even if a voice is booming, you can still tell whether it is a man's voice or a woman's voice.

Second, the deference between an average height man and an average height woman is only a few in inches. To be the knight of the laughing tree, Lyanna would have needed to have been short even for a woman.

Thirdly, Lyanna was described as using a sword but never described as using a lance. Being good at using a lance requires training, lots and lots of it.

Lyanna was 14, not fully grown, and the training for jousting is riding at rings - what one of the Targ princesses did (Daena?) and also young

Elia Sand aka Lady Lance

. Unrealistic in RL or not, in ASOIAF, girls can joust.

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Ned keeps secrets: Jon, twincest. And he doesn't hog the limelight despite being the head of a revolution. Starks are not mentioned to be tall and we know Ned is shorter than his brother to the point its noticeable.

As far as realistic, it's one thing to have young men (like current Olympians) being the best versus a young girl besting knights.

Ned's too shy to ask a girl to dance, going incognito to confront people sounds pretty reasonable.

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Ned is absolutely the type of person to stand up for someone who was being bullied. And Ned was still fairly young, so it is possible that he would not see harm in doing this.

People don't stop growing at age 18, some people continue to grow afterwards.

Lyanna was never described as especially short. She would have to be to match the knight's description.

Jousting is not overly simplified in the book. It also involves armor and timing and countless other things. Loras has been practicing jousting since he was a child, and since he comes from a rich family he can afford the best armor and horses, and he rides mares in heat when he jousts.

Standing up for someone is a Ned thing to do but under his own name, not in disguise. Also, you-never-were-the-boy-you-were Ned pretty much had had his codes established for quite some time.

The growth of long bones stops between 18-24 but the point was that even if Ned wasn't fully grown at 18, he would have been of normal height, not below average.

Lyanna's height is never described but 14 years old girls do tend to be quite short still.

Not really sure why you counter an argument that I never made, and use arguments that you make up. Loras got Gregor by a trick but it is never suggested that this is his common method of winning, he is good, and is an excellent horseman. Jaime says that horsemanship does most of the trick, and it is stated repeatedly throughout ADWD that horsemanship is a key skill for riding (Wyman Manderly, Roose Bolton about Domeric).

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Not really sure why you counter an argument that I never made, and use arguments that you make up. Loras got Gregor by a trick but it is never suggested that this is his common method of winning, he is good, and is an excellent horseman. Jaime says that horsemanship does most of the trick, and it is stated repeatedly throughout ADWD that horsemanship is a key skill for riding (Wyman Manderly, Roose Bolton about Domeric).

I'm going to focus on the last point.

You'll notice the I only mentioned the trick as one among a list of reasons Loras is a good jousters the others being that he trains constantly and that he can afford the best armor. I only mentioned Loras because you cited him being the best jouster in the kingdom as an example of jousting being displayed as unrealistic (when in fact this would be quite realistic given the reasons I listed).

Even if horsemanship was 75% of jousting, that still leaves a whole quarter of jousting that Lyanna would have no prior experience with.

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Ned keeps secrets: Jon, twincest. And he doesn't hog the limelight despite being the head of a revolution. Starks are not mentioned to be tall and we know Ned is shorter than his brother to the point its noticeable.

As far as realistic, it's one thing to have young men (like current Olympians) being the best versus a young girl besting knights.

Ned's too shy to ask a girl to dance, going incognito to confront people sounds pretty reasonable.

This is a strawman. Ned keeps Jon secret to keep him safe, and twincest at first to protect Cersei from Robert and then to protect Sansa. In other words, he keeps other people's secrets to keep them from harm, never for himself. Brandon's height is never mentioned but given what an ideal young lordling he was, he had an impressive figure. Ned being shorter then makes him medium-height, not unusually short.

If you think Lyanna is unrealistic, take it with GRRM for setting up precedents like the ones I listed above, especially the one in the spoiler tags.

Too shy to talk to a girl but not being shy to enter a fight is exactly the way these things usually go. Furthermore, Ned would have had his own armour, wouldn't have needed a mismatched one.

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Even if horsemanship was 75% of jousting, that still leaves a whole quarter of jousting that Lyanna would have no prior experience with.

tbh, we don't know if she did not have any jousting experience. We've seen it sword playing with Ben when they were kids. Maybe she also practised with his brothers.

Lyanna's height is never described but 14 years old girls do tend to be quite short still.

Plot twist... she was very tall.

"I thought she was 18!!!", Rhaegar was heard saying.

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This is a strawman. Ned keeps Jon secret to keep him safe, and twincest at first to protect Cersei from Robert and then to protect Sansa. In other words, he keeps other people's secrets to keep them from harm, never for himself.

If you think Lyanna is unrealistic, take it with GRRM for setting up precedents like the ones I listed above, especially the one in the spoiler tags.

Too shy to talk to a girl but not being shy to enter a fight is exactly the way these things usually go. Furthermore, Ned would have had his own armour, wouldn't have needed a mismatched one.

If Ned keeps secrets to keep people safe, than why wouldn't he keep a secret to protect Howland Reed from being bullied or shamed?

Ned's armor would have been blazoned with the symbol of House Stark (that's how armored people identified each other on the battlefield). If he wanted to go undercover, he would probably have needed to borrow armor from some other people.

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"I thought she was 18!!!", Rhaegar was heard saying.

LOL. 15 will still get you 20, Rhaegar. Or in your case, a chest full of hammer.

If jousting is 75% horse, the rest is holding a stick steady. Maybe she didn't get alot of practice in the yard, but I bet she paid close attention when daddy Rickard and Brandon and the master-at-arms were talking about jousting. Then all she has to do is get on her horse and tilt at a target she sets up outside Winterfell. Sounds just like something Lyanna would do to me.

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Ned is absolutely the type of person to stand up for someone who was being bullied. And Ned was still fairly young, so it is possible that he would not see harm in doing this.

People don't stop growing at age 18, some people continue to grow afterwards.

Lyanna was never described as especially short. She would have to be to match the knight's description.

Please! Logic! A young girl will, with all probability, be shorter than her brother elder by three years. Any height argument that works against Ned, works way stronger against Lyanna.

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