Jaime: another possibility for Knight of the Laughing Tree

[TimJames]

If jousting is 75% horse, the rest is holding a stick steady. Maybe she didn't get alot of practice in the yard, but I bet she paid close attention when daddy Rickard and Brandon and the master-at-arms were talking about jousting. Then all she has to do is get on her horse and tilt at a target she sets up outside Winterfell. Sounds just like something Lyanna would do to me.

The extra quarter is not just holding the stick, it also involves keeping it steady, putting on armor correctly, hitting your opponent, and avoiding your opponents stick.

A lance is big: as in, bigger than a full grown person. I'd like to see how young Lyanna could have snuck one out of the Winterfell armory and back on multiple occasions without anyone noticing. Likewise, how could she have made her own? I don't recall woodworking or carpentry being one of her skills.

[Ygrain]

Plot twist... she was very tall.

"I thought she was 18!!!", Rhaegar was heard saying.

:D

If Ned keeps secrets to keep people safe, than why wouldn't he keep a secret to protect Howland Reed from being bullied or shamed?

Ned's armor would have been blazoned with the symbol of House Stark (that's how armored people identified each other on the battlefield). If he wanted to go undercover, he would probably have needed to borrow armor from some other people.

Look at those examples I gave and try to think harder. What you propose is in no way similar.

Can you show a quote of Ned's armour being blazoned? And even if it was, a normal 18 years old wouldn't have a problem getting another, less prominent (not to mention putting a surcoat over it).

[TimJames]

Please! Logic! A young girl will, with all probability, be shorter than her brother elder by three years. Any height argument that works against Ned, works way stronger against Lyanna.

How do you know she wasn't tall like Brandon? People go through puberty at different ages.

[Ygrain]

A lance is big: as in, bigger than a full grown person. I'd like to see how young Lyanna could have snuck one out of the Winterfell armory and back on multiple occasions without anyone noticing. Likewise, how could she have made her own? I don't recall woodworking or carpentry being one of her skills.

/facepalm/

Ridiculouser and ridiculouser.

Has it occured to you that she may have needed to pull the trick just once and then keep the training material in some hideout? Or that someone might have done it for her?

[TimJames]

/facepalm/

Ridiculouser and ridiculouser.

Has it occured to you that she may have needed to pull the trick just once and then keep the training material in some hideout? Or that someone might have done it for her?

...

I think they would notice if one of the lances suddenly went missing. Those things aren't cheap.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

How do you know she wasn't tall like Brandon? People go through puberty at different ages.

"It was never mentioned that she was as tall as an average girl of her age. Therefore it's fair to assume she was at least as tall, if not taller than an average adult man." Is this seriously your opinion?

[TimJames]

"It was never mentioned that she was as tall as an average girl of her age. Therefore it's fair to assume she was at least as tall, if not taller than an average adult man." Is this seriously your opinion?

That's not the point. The point I was trying to make is that it is not sound to assume that she is short, as no real mention of her height was made.

[Ser Leftwich]

Maybe Lyanna was about the average height-weight-build for a 14 year old Northern-Westerosi woman of noble birth, who rode a horse well. But that would be an assumption.

Also, it is never mentioned how many times she ever rode a horse, just that she did it well. Hmmm.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

...

I think they would notice if one of the lances suddenly went missing. Those things aren't cheap.

The ones for jousting are. They're disposable.

[Mal Malenkirk]

The extra quarter is not just holding the stick, it also involves keeping it steady, putting on armor correctly, hitting your opponent, and avoiding your opponents stick.

A lance is big: as in, bigger than a full grown person. I'd like to see how young Lyanna could have snuck one out of the Winterfell armory and back on multiple occasions without anyone noticing. Likewise, how could she have made her own? I don't recall woodworking or carpentry being one of her skills.

As I said up thread, a 14 year girl old beating even the lesser of any knights able to take the field at the largest tourney or the year (The jouster list a this event would be kind of like the NBA/NHL/NFL of jousting) is completely and utterly unrealistic... but this is fantasy.

In this world, jousting is mostly riding as per the words of one of the greatest fighter and jouster of that universe. In real life, it absolutely is not, but in this world, it is what it is.

So we need to accept it is possible that Lyanna was able to defeat three trained men despite the physical disparity and having very limited training on the basis that she was an excellent horseman alone. On the same topic, the winner of the Hunger Games was a girl. I know, I know.

Once we pass that hurdle, she really is the best candidate based on the information available.

[TimJames]

The ones for jousting are. They're disposable.

Disposable doesn't always mean cheap. It could just mean that a Lord Paramount family is rich.

Jousting lances were explicitly designed to be as non lethal as possible, so of course they needed to be made my a specialized craftsmen. So that means they wouldn't exactly be dirt cheap.

And even then they are still bigger than a person and kind of hard to sneak out of the armory without someone noticing.

[TimJames]

As I said before, a 14 year girl old beating even the lesser of any knights able to take the field at the largest tourney or the year (The jouster there would be kind of like the NBA/NHL/NFL or jousting) is completely and utterly unrealistic... but this is fantasy.

In this world, jousting his 75% riding as per the words of one of the greatest fighter and jouster of that era. In real life, it absolutely is not, but in this world, it is what it is.

So we need to accept it is possible that Lyanna was able to defeat three trained men despite being the physical disparity and limited training on the basis that she was an excellent horseman. On the same topic, the winner of the Hunger games was a girl. I know, I know.

Once we pass that hurdle, she really is the best candidate based on the information available.

What happened in the hunger games was realistic, considering that person trained her whole life hunting with a bow and arrow. Hardly disadvantaged there.

An untrained fourteen year old unhorsing someone with more training not once but three times in a row is (as you said) unrealistic.

[Ser Leftwich]

Another reason/time Jaime might have thought about having done the KotLT, was when he was thinking about his White Book entry. He would have considered it, even though he knew it was something that he knew could not be in the White Book.

[Ser Leftwich]

Why would Ned have to disguise himself?

If it was a matter of honor of the Stark bannerman and therefore, indirectly, the Starks, why didn't Brandon get off his ass and chastise the 'false' knights?

[complexphoenix]

I would think that Jaime's POV would have hinted at this if it were true. Instead what we get is Jaime reminiscing about eating at an inn on his miserable way back to KL. There is no indication, none at all, that Jaime is concealing anything from the reader concerning his experience at the Tourney. Usually when a POV character is hiding something from us, we get a hint, as Jaime hints at the truth about Tysha throughout his ASOS POV.

I saw Aerys' own belief, as described in TWOIAF, that Jaime was the KotLT as a demonstration of just how utterly bonkers he'd become, seeing treachery in every shadow and assuming that everything out of the ordinary was a sign of danger.

[Hangover of the Morning]

As I said up thread, a 14 year girl old beating even the lesser of any knights able to take the field at the largest tourney or the year (The jousters list there would be kind of like the NBA/NHL/NFL or jousting) is completely and utterly unrealistic... but this is fantasy.

In this world, jousting is mostly riding as per the words of one of the greatest fighter and jouster of that universe. In real life, it absolutely is not, but in this world, it is what it is.

So we need to accept it is possible that Lyanna was able to defeat three trained men despite the physical disparity and having very limited training on the basis that she was an excellent horseman alone. On the same topic, the winner of the Hunger Games was a girl. I know, I know.

Once we pass that hurdle, she really is the best candidate based on the information available.

Precisely. There's a bit of artistic license involved and some of it the author tries to explain by a "hand -wave" (jousting is mostly about horse riding) but that doesn't change the fact that Lyanna fits best thematically, logistically and narratively,

Coming up with countra-arguments such as Lyanna would be caught stealing an expensive lance, thus can't be the KotLT (as if that wouldn't apply to anybody) is grossly missing the point.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I saw Aerys' own belief, as described in TWOIAF, that Jaime was the KotLT as a demonstration of just how utterly bonkers he'd become, seeing treachery in every shadow and assuming that everything out of the ordinary was a sign of danger.

Totally agree. I also think that George or the other authors wanted to add it as a bit of an ironic joke. Aerys' accusation is completely baseless and paranoid at this time but he in fact is later killed by Jaime.

[Sanset]

My implicit point was that most of the steam of any theory placing Jaime as the KoLT over Lyanna relies on the fact that he is a much more realistic candidate. And he is, by a wild margin!

But realism has nothing to do with this, it's a story, not history. And the text only truly supports Lyanna, IMO. I'd be completely shocked if it was anybody else.

Oh! I see, I'm afraid I had misunderstood your point.

Well,

“If you would wed, wed,” the Red Viper had told his own daughters. “If not, take your pleasure where you find it. There’s little enough of it in this world. Choose well, though. If you saddle yourself with a fool or a brute, don’t look to me to rid you of him. I gave you the tools to do that for yourself.”

So I doubt that that would be the reason why people wouldn't dare to hurt her ;)

I think it's a good point, anyway, the Viper is not only dangerous, he is vindictive and that 'advise' was given to his daughters, I don't think people, if they know about it, would rely on that. The man has built his reputation with facts, not by feeding lies about him.

Elia Sand is a good parallel,

but I guess it would be a fantastic situation, like Lyanna, if she was TKotLT.

[Ygrain]

Coming up with countra-arguments such as Lyanna would be caught stealing an expensive lance, thus can't be the KotLT (as if that wouldn't apply to anybody) is grossly missing the point.

Besides, it's not like there were no practice weapons that were expendable.

BTW, has anyone mentioned Barristan being able, though barely so, joust at 10?

[Ser Leftwich]

BTW, has anyone mentioned Barristan being able, though barely so, joust at 10?

How could that possibly be relevant? Is he a 14 year old, possibly above-average height girl who may or may not have hit puberty?