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Catelyn's venomous impact on Blackfish


Modelex

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I don't know how. Why would the Lannisters pay attention to Jon before he became LC?

Sorry, I just don't get it.

The Lannisters have cause to mingle in the affairs of the watch considering Stannis is up there and is using the Wall as his home base for the time being. Regardless of what Brynden knew about Robb's intentions to name him heir, he'd have to be really dumb not to have an ounce of suspicion about how Jon became LC after only serving a couple of years and when there were other candidates who had been around for a while, especially since it's pretty clear to everyone the Lannisters have cause to mingle in the affairs of the watch. The news is also delivered by a Lannister, which just increase the suspicion. It's not that the Lannisters would pay attention to Jon before he became LC, but that their interest in the watch and Jon's position would understandably give cause someone to pause and wonder what's going on.

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Because the Blackfish is not his own man and Catelyn's influence is 100% in his mind. If he deemed Catelyn's opinion worthy, that is on him, not her. We have the benefit of knowing why they're wrong about Jon, but Blackfish doesn't. He only knows that a bastard son of Eddard exists, and sorry, but bastards don't have the best reputation. It's not Jon's fault, nor Catelyn's nor Brynden's. It's simply the view/superstition of their culture.

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This is another thing. That woman wanted to name some random as Robb's heir over Jon, and likens him to Theon yet again. Did Jon piss in her porridge? How much baseless hatred can you have for someone?

I think Catelyn should have had the nickname "Red Viper"

The random person had legal ties to Winterfell. Bastards have none, and as she correctly points out, that has caused the realm strife in the past. It may not have been an ideal solution, but had Jon died up at the Wall, which was a real possibility, who would Robb's heir have been? There is a certain amount of irrationality in Catelyn at this moment, but the same is true for Robb making the call in the first place. Jeor was dead at this point. There was a power vacuum at the Wall with two higher members both hating Jon Snow. There was no guarantee that Jon could have been released by the NW, and no guarantee that he was even alive.

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I think people give too much hate for Cat disliking Jon.

He's the bastard child of her husband, a stain on her honour and a threat to her legitimate children.

Not only that but he has lived in Winterfell as if he were one of the legitimate Stark children, her children.

You can say well that's not his fault all you want but at the end of the day human emotions are not rational.

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I think Apple gets it right here. I mean even if the Blackfish thought John was the greatest kid that ever lived, why would he tell Jaime that? And why does the Blackfish's opinion of John matter anyway? If they ever meet and the Blackfish is all like,"I heard from Catelyn that you are a traitorous no good son of bitch", I hope John tells the Blackfish that he and Catelyn can go fuck themselves.

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I think people give too much hate for Cat disliking Jon.

He's the bastard child of her husband, a stain on her honour and a threat to her legitimate children.

Not only that but he has lived in Winterfell as if he were one of the legitimate Stark children, her children.

You can say well that's not his fault all you want but at the end of the day human emotions are not rational.

AHHHHHHH! THIS!! SO MUCH!!!

It's so easy to criticize emotions. Rarely is a person so stable and well-adjusted that they have "control" over them.

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I can certainly understand Catelyn's dislike of Jon - actually I don't get why others find that so hard to fathom.

What I would be surprised is if BF hasn't realized that Catelyn has a super-high view of her own actions/judgement and routinely enumerates others' limitations (particularly in her POVs) - and I'm talking her loved ones not Jon here.

That said, I do think BF is strategic - he likely would reserve judgement on Jon (too far away for him to care about right now, and he can't tell without meeting him personally) and his statement is to throw off the Lannisters.

That, and yes, bastards don't have a savory reputation on Westeros (actually they didn't on earth up until about the 1960s) - so there may also be some bias at work.

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As far as the Tullys are concerned, Jon is the living embodiment of Ned's betrayal to Cat by sleeping with another woman. When mixed with the fact that bastards can cause issues for their trueborn siblings, especially if they are legitimized, their feelings seem natural. Then there's the established "facts" that bastards are treaturous because they were born of lies and lust. Top that off with Theon's actions and it would seem weird if they were all gung ho, pro-Jon types.



That's not to say that I am opposed to the idea of the Blackfish knowing more than he lets on. In fact, I think it's perfectly reasonable. BUT a Tully disliking Ned's bastard fits in with the established perception of bastards, so it would not draw Jaime's suspicions.


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I can certainly understand Catelyn's dislike of Jon - actually I don't get why others find that so hard to fathom.

It's because we have both POVs in the story: Jon's and hers. And she's an adult woman with a position of power, while Jon is a kid, and by being a kid, he's been identified as a "victim". It's very easy to feel more empathy towards Jon than Cat, even though Cat's fears are not completely irrational. Not only is that "bastards are a danger to the legitimate children" (which isn't Jon's case), Ned's secrecy about the identity of the mother is not only suspicious but disturbing, if you put yourself in Cat's shoes.
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With regard to John's and Catelyn's relationship. I actually get more annoyned with John's reaction. Its too bad John didn't realize that Cat was never going to be his buddy, friend, or whatever. I really wish John hadn't let Cat treat him like a chump his last night at Winterfell. I would have liked it if he had chewed her ass a little.


Overall, I do like Cat though.

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The Lannisters have cause to mingle in the affairs of the watch considering Stannis is up there and is using the Wall as his home base for the time being. Regardless of what Brynden knew about Robb's intentions to name him heir, he'd have to be really dumb not to have an ounce of suspicion about how Jon became LC after only serving a couple of years and when there were other candidates who had been around for a while, especially since it's pretty clear to everyone the Lannisters have cause to mingle in the affairs of the watch. The news is also delivered by a Lannister, which just increase the suspicion. It's not that the Lannisters would pay attention to Jon before he became LC, but that their interest in the watch and Jon's position would understandably give cause someone to pause and wonder what's going on.

Exactly.

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It's because we have both POVs in the story: Jon's and hers. And she's an adult woman with a position of power, while Jon is a kid, and by being a kid, he's been identified as a "victim". It's very easy to feel more empathy towards Jon than Cat, even though Cat's fears are not completely irrational. Not only is that "bastards are a danger to the legitimate children" (which isn't Jon's case), Ned's secrecy about the identity of the mother is not only suspicious but disturbing, if you put yourself in Cat's shoes.

I certainly feel more empathy towards Jon than Cat (also generally because of her behavior outside of their interactions), but even still, I don't think it takes a great deal of understanding to at least understand why she acts the way she does.

On the flip side, I don't see how Ned's not discussing the identity of the mother is suspicious or disturbing from Cats POV - its totally in keeping with the public view of 'The Right Honorable Eddard Stark'. E.g. that if he lapsed from his honor, he'd be too ashamed to want to discuss it further.

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I think it's just that Blackfish needed a reason to dismiss Jaime's offer. Catelyn's distrust of Jon is an easy excuse.



It also puts Jon somewhat out of harm's way. By claiming he cannot be trusted, Jaime Lannister has no reason to suspect there could be a future alliance between Blackfish/Edmure and Jon. He's Ned Stark's last living son as far as BF knows and i'm sure he doesn't want anymore Tullys/Starks relatives killed. Doesn't matter if he's a bastard or didn't have a great relationship with Catelyn.


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For every Jon, Mya or Edric there is a Falia Flowers. Give Cat some credit.

In Falia's defense, the Hewetts had it coming. There's no reason for her to love them.

And in turn, an insult to House Tully itself.

How is that an insult. Bastards are not a rare species in Westeros

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In Falia's defense, the Hewetts had it coming. There's no reason for her to love them.

Unless Falia had been sexually abused by her father, step-mother, and step-sisters, her revenge on them was grossly disproportionate.

Admittedly, Lord Hewett was a fool to keep her at the castle as a servant, given the resentment that was sure to develop.

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