Catelyn's venomous impact on Blackfish

[Ingelheim]

But still, we know exactly nothing about where she lived, let alone how she was treated. Given all of the evidence we have - Tywin's views on social position, and of course Cersei's contempt for Cat's tolerance of the way Jon was brought up at Winterfell - it seems extremely likely that although Joy was taken care of, she was not brought up in any way that stands comparison with how Jon was brought up. And it's the way Jon was brought up that is the issue, to Cat: she fears - rightly, as it happens! - that bringing him up so closely with the legitimate siblings blurs the usual social lines and could lead to him wanting to inherit.

We also have to admit that Joy was a woman...there were no chances she would inherit anything. I don't remember if Jon is a few months older than Robb, but he is a boy. If Jon had been born a woman, Cat wouldn't have had the same fears, that's for sure. Also, Joy was Gerion's daughter. Gerion himself was the third brother. It's completely different.

[SeanF]

There are some hilarious discussions about Catelyn there though. "Catelyn Stark on trial" (for being an unfit mother) is just priceless stuff, I have rarely laughed so much.

It's pretty good. Evidence for Catelyn's "unfitness" as a mother includes staying with her father when he's dying, neglecting her other children by looking after Bran, after his fall, letting Arya do needlework, causing the Sack of Winterfell, "hindering" Robb, by giving him political advice, "selfishly" releasing Jaime to get her daughters back, and being a worse parent than Cersei.

[Mladen]

I think I was confusing him with someone else on that point. Who called her "Lady Lannister" and said Robb can't let her inherit. Was that the Great Jon?

Stannis was the ONLY one who ever called her "Lady Lannister". Catelyn herself told that Robb can't let Tyrion get Winterfell via his marriage with Sansa. As I recall, no lord ever said anything on the subject.

[the conquering bastard 25]

It's pretty good. Evidence for Catelyn's "unfitness" as a mother includes staying with her father when he's dying, neglecting her other children by looking after Bran, after his fall, letting Arya do needlework, causing the Sack of Winterfell, "hindering" Robb, by giving him political advice, "selfishly" releasing Jaime to get her daughters back, and being a worse parent than Cersei.

Thank You! Some one said that Cat wanted peace for other women's children, If that was the case she wouldn't have freed Jamie. She wasn't thinking of the realm or peace when she did that, Cat was thinking of her daughters and be damned the con queses. It was unfair and selfish, then there is the conversation she had with Robb about Jon. It's unfair and illogical to compare Jon and Theon. Even theon knows that Jon has more social standing at Winterfell then he did even as a bastard. Ned comments to Cat that Robb and Jon were close and that he should stay at winterfell. Projecting her thoughts onto Jon and his character is not actually how the boy is or whom he would support.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do think there is a good possibility that The Black Fish was just blowing smoke about Jon for Jaime's benefit. Even IF BF doesn't know specifically about the will, I'm guessing he must have known something of Robb's feelings on Jon. We need to remember that Robb and The Black Fish spent a lot of time on campaign together away from Cat's eyes and observations, especially their time in the Westerlands. Should the BF not be certain about the will, I wouldn't be surprised if he at least knew that Robb was considering naming Jon his heir. Robb approached Cat about that issue on the road from Riverrun to The Twins after naming BF his Warden of the Southern Marches (I think that was the title, ie.....about the second most powerful position after Robb's own crown), it's just hard to believe that Robb wouldn't have mentioned that he was considering naming Jon as his heir until he had a child.

Now, does this mean that BF is heading for the Wall, who knows? LOL Some of the other men from Riverrun opted for the black though, I have to wonder if they have any type of message for Jon. Ironically, I do suspect Jon wouldn't want to leave the Wall, regardless of Robb's will or his own paternity. I think the NW would have to be disbanded and/or reformed with different rules and regulations for Jon to even consider walking away from the NW.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Some of the other men from Riverrun opted for the black though, I have to wonder if they have any type of message for Jon.

I actually think this is exactly why those specific dudes decided to go to the Wall.

[Jasta11]

Suddenly, the word venomous has become the new adjective for every single thing Catelyn has ever done.

Her venomous words/deeds/fingers/personality are behind every single bad thing that's ever happened in Westeros.

It is known.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I actually think this is exactly why those specific dudes decided to go to the Wall.

I definitely think it must be a possibility. I wonder if the BF really was informed of Robb's decision before they left for the Twins, or as suggested back thread, did Robb somehow send word after news of Balon's death, or of course, the ever popular choice of.......getting word from those who were travelling to Greywater Watch?

I also want to reread that 'Mercy' chapter, did any of those escorting the men from Riverrun turn up with the envoys in Braavos, or was that just The Mountain's men, Raff and company?

I do also think that there's a chance that BF at least knew of Robb's feelings about Jon. The two of them spent a lot of time together away from Cat, off page. I actually wish we could have seen some of that, them in the Westerlands, etc. This is where I have to say that I agree with GRRM and regret not having a bit of a Robb POV.

[JoeyBanana]

You know, even if Catelyn told everybody how terrible Jon was, the Blackfish would be the Tully to not be fooled. He isn't very biased when it comes to his family, like with Edmure or Lysa. Not to mention he spent more time with Robb and would likely know what her son thought of Jon.

Oh and he's described as a kind man. It's why he was with Lysa, didn't hesitate to help Cat and Robb, and forgave Hoster (although that was show only, wasn't it?). He's also the most probable to empathize with Jon's position as the black wolf of family Stark.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

You know, even if Catelyn told everybody how terrible Jon was, the Blackfish would be the Tully to not be fooled. He isn't very biased when it comes to his family, like with Edmure or Lysa. Not to mention he spent more time with Robb and would likely know what her son thought of Jon.

Oh and he's described as a kind man. It's why he was with Lysa, didn't hesitate to help Cat and Robb, and forgave Hoster (although that was show only, wasn't it?).

ITA on your assessment of the Blackfish's personality. He's presented as very kind, the one all the kids including Petyr came to with their problems, full of common sense, but he's also not anyone's push over. IIRC, the show scenes were basically taken from descriptions in the book regarding him and Hoster making up. It just happened off page as well.

[Rusted Iron Hinge]

Not to mention the time she had Lord Rickard stark burned alive

Everyone knows that Cat is the main villain of the series. Just look at everything she's done:

She poisoned Jon Arryn and blamed it on the Lannisters.

She ganged raped a crofter's daughter with Tully bannermen and paid the girl a silver for each soldier the girl took.

While hunting along the Weeping Water, she hanged the local miller and raped his new bride--claiming it was her right as the Leech Lady of Winterfell.

She sent Falyse Stokeworth down to Qyburn's dungeon to die. This was after Cat gang raped her sister Lollys during the riot at King's Landing.

Catelyn is patient zero for both Greyscale and the Pale Mare.

She sold her little sister Lysa to a Dothraki horselord. Lysa then "woke the silver trout," so Cat shoved her out the Moon Door.

She rearmed the Faith Militant and refused to repay the Iron Bank.

She made Vargo Hoat eat his own limbs. This was after she bit off his ear and lied to him about sapphires.

Catelyn once opened her mouth and breathed fire down on Quentyn Martell. Oh.

She cut off Myrcella Baratheon's ear and then claimed to be "of the night."

While skinchanging at Riverrun, she had sex with another trout and enjoyed it.

She birthed the shadow demon that killed Renly, and then blamed Brienne for his death. Then she ate Brienne's face.

Cat is also the perfumed seneschal, the Storm God, and the Great Other.

She drove a sword through her son Robb's heart at Edmure's wedding.

She and Edmure then proceeded to copulate next to Robb's corpse while Cat was on her period.

She poisoned the honeyed locusts and regularly feasts on unborn puppies on sticks.

She beat Ned to death to maintain her honor after Euron defiled him.

She defecated on Oznak zo Pahl's corpse in front of the walls of Meereen. Then she wiped herself on his cloak.

She molested the Damphair when he was a child. Stoneheart has come again.

She shoved that stick up Arya's bunghole and fucked her bloody.

She chopped off Theon's manhood and fed it to the goats.

...the she smashed his fucking head in. Like this.

She fucks her sons, births more sons, and then fucks the new sons.

She has sacrificed dozens of infants named Sansa and Arya to the Others.

She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moonboy for all I know.

I hear she goes by the nickname "Gatehouse Catelyn."

...But even worse than all that: she was emotionally cold toward her husband's by-blow when Bran was in a coma. THE HORROR!!!!!! (Never mind the fact that it was SHE who pushed Bran out of the window in the first place).

...Oh, and she's also the Harpy.

[OldGimletEye]

You know, even if Catelyn told everybody how terrible Jon was, the Blackfish would be the Tully to not be fooled. He isn't very biased when it comes to his family, like with Edmure or Lysa. Not to mention he spent more time with Robb and would likely know what her son thought of Jon.

Oh and he's described as a kind man. It's why he was with Lysa, didn't hesitate to help Cat and Robb, and forgave Hoster (although that was show only, wasn't it?). He's also the most probable to empathize with Jon's position as the black wolf of family Stark.

Good points. I tend to think BF was bullshitting Jaime. He doesn't have any reason to tell Jaime what he really thinks about John.

[Lady White Wolf]

Rusted Iron Hinge - that was awesome LOL.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I definitely think it must be a possibility. I wonder if the BF really was informed of Robb's decision before they left for the Twins

I'd be very surprised if Robb made his choice without telling or consulting Brynden, even if it was done off-page.

The direwolf is still flying over Riverrun when Jaime arrives. Robb's dead, Jeyne isn't knocked up, Bran, Rickon and Arya are presumed dead and Sansa is Lady Lannister. So who's left?

[LordStoneheart]

It's pretty good. Evidence for Catelyn's "unfitness" as a mother includes staying with her father when he's dying, neglecting her other children by looking after Bran, after his fall, letting Arya do needlework, causing the Sack of Winterfell, "hindering" Robb, by giving him political advice, "selfishly" releasing Jaime to get her daughters back, and being a worse parent than Cersei.

A lot of this makes the case that she's a rather extraordinary mother compared to most others in the story.

[Jasta11]

A lot of this makes the case that she's a rather extraordinary mother compared to most others in the story.

SeanF forgot to use the sarcasm font, it seems.

Also :lol: at Rusted Iron Hinge!

[LordStoneheart]

Sand Snakes, Joy Hill, Edric Storm, Walder Rivers...those are the bastards I can remember

The Sand Snakes as an example can't truly be held against Catelyn. Dorne as a kingdom is more progressive than the rest of the realm. Edric was never around his father, only his uncle and castellan, and well, one bastard tolerated by Walder Frey is hardly a good example considering his disregard for life in general.

SeanF forgot to use the sarcasm font, it seems.

I know, I just mean that most of those things listed given with correct context do the opposite of what the jurors at Tower of the Hand are apparently trying to convey... Although to be fair I just recently checked their conclusion there and it was a lot more positive than I would've guessed.

[Ygrain]

I'd be very surprised if Robb made his choice without telling or consulting Brynden, even if it was done off-page.

The direwolf is still flying over Riverrun when Jaime arrives. Robb's dead, Jeyne isn't knocked up, Bran, Rickon and Arya are presumed dead and Sansa is Lady Lannister. So who's left?

:stunned: :thumbsup:

That's... mindblowing. If Jeyne is not pregnant, then indeed, for whom is Blackfish holding the castle?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'd be very surprised if Robb made his choice without telling or consulting Brynden, even if it was done off-page.

The direwolf is still flying over Riverrun when Jaime arrives. Robb's dead, Jeyne isn't knocked up, Bran, Rickon and Arya are presumed dead and Sansa is Lady Lannister. So who's left?

I wonder if he would have done that if Cat had still been alive :/

[SeanF]

Thank You! Some one said that Cat wanted peace for other women's children, If that was the case she wouldn't have freed Jamie. She wasn't thinking of the realm or peace when she did that, Cat was thinking of her daughters and be damned the con queses. It was unfair and selfish, then there is the conversation she had with Robb about Jon. It's unfair and illogical to compare Jon and Theon. Even theon knows that Jon has more social standing at Winterfell then he did even as a bastard. Ned comments to Cat that Robb and Jon were close and that he should stay at winterfell. Projecting her thoughts onto Jon and his character is not actually how the boy is or whom he would support.

I wasn't endorsing the views being expressed.

Releasing Jaime may or may not have been ill-judged. It certainly wasn't selfish. When Catelyn was placed under arrest, she thought she might be hanged for what she had done. She accepted the risk of execution, in order to try and save her daughters.