Why do The Iron Islands so desperately want independence?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Kneelers don't know what real freedom is. Why even ask the question when you're incapable of comprehending the answer?

Besides the Ironborn & the "Wildlings,"(& slight exception for Dorne) the rest of Westeros is a bunch of MOOKS.

Every man of the Isles is worth 12 from the mainland. They are not bullies, rather, for 300 years they've been ganged up on by a confederation of lickspittles w/ 10+ times their numbers.

Freedom is Kingsmoot electing your own leader, not following an inbred psycho 13 year old b/c his "dad" was king.

LQTM. "Kneelers" elect their kings, roughly, 25 times as often as the ironborn do. In the last three centuries, the heirs to the Iron Throne twice have been chosen by Great Councils. On the other hand, Euron's kingsmoot was the first one in four thousand years. Otherwise, they just followed that "let's give the crown to the inbred maniac whose dad was a king" procedure you seem to despise so much. If electing kings is freedom (seriously?), then the ironborn must needs learn it from kneelers, because the latter are, simply, twenty-five times more free.

But that's just a side note. My answer to the OP question is: they do not. And neither do the northmen, by the way. Before Balon, there had been no Greyjoy rebellions in the history of the seven kingdoms. Even Dagon hadn't declared independence or crowned himself. Just as before Ned's head fell off, there had been no trace of strong secession sentiment in the North. Think about it: if the Iron Islands "desperately want independence", how come they had never acted upon it before Balon? Dorne told Queen Rhaenys to shove her dragon where the sun didn't shine in Year One, and fed Lord Tyrell to scorpions in 161. Nothing similar happened in the Iron Islands. Hence, they in fact don't care about independence all that much. It's Balon Greyjoy's personal pet project, which Euron continues.

[James Arryn]

LQTM. "Kneelers" elect their kings, roughly, 25 times as often as the ironborn do. In the last three centuries, the heirs to the Iron Throne twice have been chosen by Great Councils. On the other hand, Euron's kingsmoot was the first one in four thousand years. Otherwise, they just followed that "let's give the crown to the inbred maniac whose dad was a king" procedure you seem to despise so much. If electing kings is freedom (seriously?), then the ironborn must needs learn it from kneelers, because the latter are, simply, twenty-five times more free.

But that's just a side note. My answer to the OP question is: they do not. And neither do the northmen, by the way. Before Balon, there had been no Greyjoy rebellions in the history of the seven kingdoms. Even Dagon hadn't declared independence or crowned himself. Just as before Ned's head fell off, there had been no trace of strong secession sentiment in the North. Think about it: if the Iron Islands "desperately want independence", how come they had never acted upon it before Balon? Dorne told Queen Rhaenys to shove her dragon where the sun didn't shine in Year One, and fed Lord Tyrell to scorpions in 161. Nothing similar happened in the Iron Islands. Hence, they in fact don't care about independence all that much. It's Balon Greyjoy's personal pet project, which Euron continues.

Great Council =\= election or freedom.

The top 0.05% of Westerosi appoint a fraction of that percentage to choose which fraction of that fraction will rule all of them.

[Lord Hanna]

Ironborn thralls are treated significantly differently than Ghiscari slaves. Small difference to some, I know.

Yeah i'm sure if your mom/sister/aunt/cousin got kidnapped, raped non stop and took as a thrall/salt wife. Or if your dad/brother/uncle got kidnapped and brought to be a thrall on one of the ships, you'd be thinking "but it's not really a slave...".

Logic!

A thrall is still someone kidnapped, taken from their home after (assuming) their family/husband got killed by IB, and brought to the Iron Islands without giving consent.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Ironborn thralls are treated significantly differently than Ghiscari slaves. Small difference to some, I know.

Yeah i'm sure if your mom/sister/aunt/cousin got kidnapped, raped non stop and took as a thrall/salt wife. Or if your dad/brother/uncle got kidnapped and brought to be a thrall on one of the ships, you'd be thinking "but it's not really a slave...".

Logic!

A thrall is still someone kidnapped, taken from their home after (assuming) their family/husband got killed by IB, and brought to the Iron Islands without giving consent.

:owned: Perfect! But don't forget it's all because they don't have to eat! That is why they are creating even more starving mouths.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Great Council =\= election or freedom.

The top 0.05% of Westerosi appoint a fraction of that percentage to choose which fraction of that fraction will rule all of them.

I'd love to see the source you took this number from.

[RainGhost]

LQTM. "Kneelers" elect their kings, roughly, 25 times as often as the ironborn do. In the last three centuries, the heirs to the Iron Throne twice have been chosen by Great Councils. On the other hand, Euron's kingsmoot was the first one in four thousand years. Otherwise, they just followed that "let's give the crown to the inbred maniac whose dad was a king" procedure you seem to despise so much. If electing kings is freedom (seriously?), then the ironborn must needs learn it from kneelers, because the latter are, simply, twenty-five times more free.

But that's just a side note. My answer to the OP question is: they do not. And neither do the northmen, by the way. Before Balon, there had been no Greyjoy rebellions in the history of the seven kingdoms. Even Dagon hadn't declared independence or crowned himself. Just as before Ned's head fell off, there had been no trace of strong secession sentiment in the North. Think about it: if the Iron Islands "desperately want independence", how come they had never acted upon it before Balon? Dorne told Queen Rhaenys to shove her dragon where the sun didn't shine in Year One, and fed Lord Tyrell to scorpions in 161. Nothing similar happened in the Iron Islands. Hence, they in fact don't care about independence all that much. It's Balon Greyjoy's personal pet project, which Euron continues.

Maybe the Iron Islands did want indepdendence but knew they had no hope of rebelling against the rest of the realm until Balon had his genius idea. Then as soon as the realm was in chaos they took their chance again. And the north was perfectly happy with the Iron Throne until they started murdering their lords.

[Mithras]

I think the thralldom in Iron Islands has really some differences than the slavery in Essos. The descendants of thralls and salt wives are not well-regarded but we see that they are able to found a House of their own. House Codd is such a House with the funniest motto I have ever seen: “Though All Men Do Despise Us”

Exactly. Though all men do despise them, they are a formidable House, one you do not want to mess with. Such a thing is out of question for the slaves in Essos.

Victarion was loath to sell the prisoners captured in the Shields to slavery. The honorable way for him is to take those people to home as thralls and salt wives.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think the thralldom in Iron Islands has really some differences than the slavery in Essos. The descendants of thralls and salt wives are not well-regarded but we see that they are able to found a House of their own. House Codd is such a House with the funniest motto I have ever seen: “Though All Men Do Despise Us”

Exactly. Though all men do despise them, they are a formidable House, one you do not want to mess with. Such a thing is out of question for the slaves in Essos.

Victarion was loath to sell the prisoners captured in the Shields to slavery. The honorable way for him is to take those people to home as thralls and salt wives.

So it's ok to rape and kidnap them because maybe hundreds years later one of your descendants will be able to form a lesser house which everyone will hate. I see.

[Lord Hanna]

I think the thralldom in Iron Islands has really some differences than the slavery in Essos. The descendants of thralls and salt wives are not well-regarded but we see that they are able to found a House of their own. House Codd is such a House with the funniest motto I have ever seen: “Though All Men Do Despise Us”

Exactly. Though all men do despise them, they are a formidable House, one you do not want to mess with. Such a thing is out of question for the slaves in Essos.

Victarion was loath to sell the prisoners captured in the Shields to slavery. The honorable way for him is to take those people to home as thralls and salt wives.

What about the first person taken as a salt wife and thrall? You know, the one they kidnapped from his/her home, the one that probably had all of his family/kids murdered before being taken by the IB?

But yeah, they have the time of their lives because one day someone in their family (if they don't get killed before) will be a free man.

Anybody thinking a salt wife or thrall is any better, just imagine someone in your family becoming one...would you tell them to shut the hell up because they aren't technically slaves?

[Lord Reaver]

:owned: Perfect! But don't forget it's all because they don't have to eat! That is why they are creating even more starving mouths.

The practice of taking thralls is a holdover from when the Ironborn weren't cramped on some tiny islands which could barely support them. Do keep in mind that they ruled pretty much the entire western part of Westeros at one point. Feeding thralls was likely not an issue then.

As it is, we see in the books very, very few thralls. It appears only the very top nobility has them, as while Balon has one thrall and his brother a saltwife, those are the only ones we hear of.

It is fairly safe to say the number of thralls on the Iron Islands "today" is negligibly small.

[Lord Reaver]

What about the first person taken as a salt wife and thrall? You know, the one they kidnapped from his/her home, the one that probably had all of his family/kids murdered before being taken by the IB?

But yeah, they have the time of their lives because one day someone in their family (if they don't get killed before) will be a free man.

Anybody thinking a salt wife or thrall is any better, just imagine someone in your family becoming one...would you tell them to shut the hell up because they aren't technically slaves?

And what happens to the smallfolk when greenlanders make war, pray tell ? Oh, right, they're raped and/or killed. Case in point: Saltpans. I bet the poor bastards who were massacred there would have loved to get to live, even if it meant as a thrall.

[Mithras]

So it's ok to rape and kidnap them because maybe hundreds years later one of your descendants will be able to form a lesser house which everyone will hate. I see.

What about the first person taken as a salt wife and thrall? You know, the one they kidnapped from his/her home, the one that probably had all of his family/kids murdered before being taken by the IB?

But yeah, they have the time of their lives because one day someone in their family (if they don't get killed before) will be a free man.

Anybody thinking a salt wife or thrall is any better, just imagine someone in your family becoming one...would you tell them to shut the hell up because they aren't technically slaves?

I am not defending the Old Way. I only pointed out the difference, which surely exists. I would like to welcome those who are interested in the ironborn to the Kraken Nuncles Reread.

[Lord Hanna]

The practice of taking thralls is a holdover from when the Ironborn weren't cramped on some tiny islands which could barely support them. Do keep in mind that they ruled pretty much the entire western part of Westeros at one point. Feeding thralls was likely not an issue then.

As it is, we see in the books very, very few thralls. It appears only the very top nobility has them, as while Balon has one thrall and his brother a saltwife, those are the only ones we hear of.

It is fairly safe to say the number of thralls on the Iron Islands "today" is negligibly small.

That's like saying a cult kidnapping only 1 person is fine because they aren't a lot.

Pathetic reasoning for basically making someone your slave.

[Fire Eater]

I never said it was impossible to obtain food. Clearly, though, what they can get is barely enough, as demonstrated by Theon's reminiscing:

"The islands are stern and stony places, scant of comfort and bleak of prospect. Death is never far here, and life is mean and meager. Men spend their nights drinking ale and arguing over whose lot is worse, the fisherfolk who fight the sea or the farmers who try and scratch a crop from the poor thin soil. If truth be told, the miners have it worse than either, breaking their backs down in the dark, and for what? Iron, lead, tin, those are our treasures. Small wonder the ironmen of old turned to raiding."

"No longer may we ride the wind with fire and sword, taking what we want. Now we scratch in the ground and toss lines in the sea like other men, and count ourselves lucky if we have salt cod and porridge enough to get us through a winter." (Theon I ACOK)

They still have no trouble getting food through trade. Lords aren't described as starving. Long story short, they don't need to reave to avoid starvation. Agriculture, fishing and trade can do that.

Harlon died from greyscale. The other two died as infants. While it's not explicitly said that they starved to death, Aeron informs us that this is the usual way of the Iron Islands:

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

Those deaths aren't related to food or malnutrition, and reaving wouldn't cause the infant mortality rate to decline.

Again, barely. Thing is, as Theon points out, what they have to trade isn't all that hot as trade items. Fact is, the Ironborn are literally existing on the subsistence limit, working their asses off (yes, that one is for all you "We do not Sow" parrots) just to put enough food on the table not to starve.

The majority of the population in Westeros are subsistence farmers. The Northmen have some harsh conditions too. One can still sell enough iron to pay for food.

[Lord Hanna]

And what happens to the smallfolk when greenlanders make war, pray tell ? Oh, right, they're raped and/or killed. Case in point: Saltpans. I bet the poor bastards who were massacred there would have loved to get to live, even if it meant as a thrall.

The IB go to war too...so IB do thralls/salt wives AND go to war. What's your point? Still makes them worse.

Honestly, you seem to forget that the IB go to war and pillage/rape/burn too. AND they take thralls and salt wives.

[Lord Reaver]

They still have no trouble getting food through trade. Lords aren't described as starving. Long story short, they don't need to reave to avoid starvation. Agriculture, fishing and trade can do that.

What part of "try and scratch a crop" is it that confuses you, exactly ? Counting yourself lucky if you have enough food through winter doesn't sound like living on the edge of starvation to you ?

Those deaths aren't related to food or malnutrition, and reaving wouldn't cause the infant mortality rate to decline.

If you cannot understand how securing enough food for a mother to breastfeed impacts infant mortality rates, I am sorry, but I can't help you.

The majority of the population in Westeros are subsistence farmers. The Northmen have some harsh conditions too. One can still sell enough iron to pay for food.

Again, you are arguing directly against the published material. Apparently you think you know better than the author himself :bang:

[Lord Reaver]

The IB go to war too...so IB do thralls/salt wives AND go to war. What's your point? Still makes them worse.

Honestly, you seem to forget that the IB go to war and pillage/rape/burn too. AND they take thralls and salt wives.

Again, saltpans. If that had been an ironborn raid, those people would now be thralls. Instead they are dead. It's fairly simple, which would you prefer ?

[Marcus Agrippa]

The Iron Islands really blew its attmept at freedom when they shot at the north instead of the south. It was the dumbest move in the books. Where Stannis had a good idea in attacking kings landing at least in theory- Balon only could weaken his cause.

[Lord Hanna]

What part of "try and scratch a crop" is it that confuses you, exactly ? Counting yourself lucky if you have enough food through winter doesn't sound like living on the edge of starvation to you ?

If you cannot understand how securing enough food for a mother to breastfeed impacts infant mortality rates, I am sorry, but I can't help you.

Again, you are arguing directly against the published material. Apparently you think you know better than the author himself :bang:

Do the IB care about other woman and their kids? I don't think so. So why should anybody care about them? You get what you give.

[joluoto2]

The Iron Islands really blew its attmept at freedom when they shot at the north instead of the south. It was the dumbest move in the books. Where Stannis had a good idea in attacking kings landing at least in theory- Balon only could weaken his cause.

The Redwyne fleet was still at the Arbor. Going south would be equally stupid as going north.