Why do The Iron Islands so desperately want independence?

[Lord Hanna]

Again, saltpans. If that had been an ironborn raid, those people would now be thralls. Instead they are dead. It's fairly simple, which would you prefer ?

Again, slavery is slavery. You can try and change the debate all you want, we aren't talking about actual war, just pirates going around kidnapping people and basically making them their slaves. I'm not an idiot, i will not play your little troll game of always switching the subject.

If you can't actually debate what we're talking about instead of being scared and trying to switch the conversation....no use in debating it. You're like the kid who did something wrong, and tries to bring up stuff others did wrong to justify it. If that's your best defense...it's a shitty one.

As for your question. I'd rather die fighting them than be someone's slave that they can do anything to me.

[Jasta11]

Great Council =\= election or freedom.

The top 0.05% of Westerosi appoint a fraction of that percentage to choose which fraction of that fraction will rule all of them.

Kingsmoot is also only the nobility, the ''captains and the kings''. All the candidates are highborn, and there doesn't seem to be more than a few thousand people, at most, on Old Wyk.

Also, the last Kingsmoot ended with a Greyiron killing everyone and naming himself king. So that's not exactly a model even they follow.

[Lord Reaver]

Kingsmoot is also only the nobility, the ''captains and the kings''.

Your definition of nobility appears to be quite malleable and subject to your agenda.

In one instance, nobility is a fraction of a fraction of lords, making out one in several tens or even hundreds of thousands of the total population.

In the other instance, it's every man who owns a ship.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The practice of taking thralls is a holdover from when the Ironborn weren't cramped on some tiny islands which could barely support them. Do keep in mind that they ruled pretty much the entire western part of Westeros at one point. Feeding thralls was likely not an issue then.

As it is, we see in the books very, very few thralls. It appears only the very top nobility has them, as while Balon has one thrall and his brother a saltwife, those are the only ones we hear of.

It is fairly safe to say the number of thralls on the Iron Islands "today" is negligibly small.

::facepalm:: I have to ask; Do you really believe all that? Because I am not sure if you ate serious or not and I hope that you are just joking.

There are still thralls and salt wives at II today. I am asking you; since the IB the only thing that they want is food and independence then why they kidnap and rape? Now tell me when the mainlanders attacked II raiding and raping? But before you say during BR I have to highlight that the IB attacked Riverlands before the Royal armada attack II.

Do the IB care about other woman and their kids? I don't think so. So why should anybody care about them? You get what you give.

Because they are special little kittens and need protection, love and milk.

[Marcus Agrippa]

The Redwyne fleet was still at the Arbor. Going south would be equally stupid as going north.

If they attacked the Lannisters they stood a better shot. At the point the Iron Islands atting Lannisport and sacking the westerlands would have freed Robbs army to keep pressure on Kingslanding and have Stannis before Blackwater push into the city. Thought the timeline if I remember was Renly's death, Greyjoy declaring independence, Kingslanding, and then the mess after. It also would have kept Robb in the game and the pressure on the South. Of course that means Stannis would either have to quit or come up with a different. I wonder if Stannis would have gone to the wall what would have Robb done? The smart thing would have been for Robb to have Shireen marry Rickon or Bran and push Stannis's claim for the throne. You would then have a Northern Lord on the Iron throne.

[Lord Hanna]

Because they are special little kittens and need protection, love and milk.

It's hilarious to what lenghts he will defend the IB and their slavery ways.

But when it comes to the IB not having enough food, everybody should care about them!!!!

[Lord Reaver]

Thought the timeline if I remember was Renly's death, Greyjoy declaring independence, Kingslanding, and then the mess after.

You misremember. It was Greyjoy declaring independence, Renly's death, Kingslanding. There's roughly two months between Greyjoy deciding to go to war on the North and Renly dieing.

Here's a link to the timeline thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84563-most-precise-asoiaf-timeline-in-existence/

[Lord Reaver]

Do the IB greenlanders care about other woman and their kids? I don't think so. So why should anybody care about them? You get what you give.

[averde]

A sense of nationalism and pride in their culture. They think they're better then everyone else, and because of that they think they shouldn't be ruled by anyone but themselves. On top of that they want to fight and raid their neighbors lands not be apart of their kingdom.

[Lord Hanna]

We hear about Lords sending milk maids and stuff for kids. I'm guessing some care at least a little.

Again, why should anybody else care about the IB ? I'm really curious why you think they deserve special treatement. They got conquered 300 years ago, after making life a living hell for the riverlands, keeping them all as slaves and thralls until they got conquered...now you complain they don't have a great life? They deserve a bleak, horrible existence for the way they treat people throughout history.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It's hilarious to what lenghts he will defend the IB and their slavery ways.

But when it comes to the IB not having enough food, everybody should care about them!!!!

There was a better once (I don't remember who wrote it): The IB have the right to attack other people because the mainlanders haven't helped them to eat. Because of course they have to help them even if for hundrends of years the IB have attack them.

This of course comes along with the opinion that the IB have abandon the Old Way since AL even if we know from the text that this is wrong.

[Marcus Agrippa]

You misremember. It was Greyjoy declaring independence, Renly's death, Kingslanding. There's roughly two months between Greyjoy deciding to go to war on the North and Renly dieing.

Here's a link to the timeline thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84563-most-precise-asoiaf-timeline-in-existence/

Thank you! The Greyjoy's really then messed up. Redwynnes fleet would probably have not been involved and Renly isn't going to do anything to save the Lannisters.

[Bryanfury]

Stop arguing with the ironborn fanboys, its a waste of time. They aren't interested in logic and reason, just ramming how awesome their slaving raping culture is down your throat, and telling you how biased you are for not falling st their feet and agreeing with the Slavers Bay of Westeros

[Lord Reaver]

Again, why should anybody else care about the IB ? I'm really curious why you think they deserve special treatement. They got conquered 300 years ago, after making life a living hell for the riverlands, keeping them all as slaves and thralls until they got conquered...now you complain they don't have a great life? They deserve a bleak, horrible existence for the way they treat people throughout history.

When have I said they deserve special treatment ? On the contrary, I simply react to them being held to a higher standards than greenlanders.

When greenlanders rape, burn and pillage, it's okay, because its "war" and some Lord told them to do it.

When Ironborn rape, burn and pillage, it's terrible and they are monstrous savages.

Make sense yet ?

[Lord Reaver]

This of course comes along with the opinion that the IB have abandon the Old Way since AL even if we know from the text that this is wrong.

Only we know from the text this is correct:

"Once I might have carried you home as a prize, and kept you to wife whether you willed it or no. The ironmen of old did such things. A man had his rock wife, his true bride, ironborn like himself, but he had his salt wives too, women captured on raids."

The girl's eyes grew wide, and not because he had bared her breasts. "I would be your salt wife, milord."

"I fear those days are gone." Theon's finger circled one heavy teat, spiraling in toward the fat brown nipple. "No longer may we ride the wind with fire and sword, taking what we want. Now we scratch in the ground and toss lines in the sea like other men, and count ourselves lucky if we have salt cod and porridge enough to get us through a winter." (Theon I ACOK)

[Lord Reaver]

Thank you! The Greyjoy's really then messed up. Redwynnes fleet would probably have not been involved and Renly isn't going to do anything to save the Lannisters.

No, Renly isn't going to save the Lannisters. But that's not the point. The point is, what will Renly do once he's done mopping up the Lannisters ?

The answer is that he'd likely move north up the Riverlands to deal with the rebellious North (and II if they had allied). It is likely he would deploy the Redwyne fleet against Dragonstone to deal with his stubborn brother.

In that situation, Balon would find himself holding a handful of castles on the westerlands against a numerically superior foe. With the combined North/Ironborn forces being no match for that of Renly, the outcome would be fairly predictable.

If, on the other hand, Balon is holding Moat Cailin with a strong navy to defend it, things would look quite differently.

[Lord Hanna]

When have I said they deserve special treatment ? On the contrary, I simply react to them being held to a higher standards than greenlanders.

When greenlanders rape, burn and pillage, it's okay, because its "war" and some Lord told them to do it.

When Ironborn rape, burn and pillage, it's terrible and they are monstrous savages.

Make sense yet ?

War crimes are very different from slavery. Back then and in real life. If you can't understand that, you're the one with the problem.

Anyways, the IB do BOTH. They do it during war and do it just to reave/rape/steal/take thralls or salt wives.

So once again, not helping your case. Anyways, you know when someone has so much bias towards something, every one of their arguments turn into bullshit. I have no reason to hate the IB, theon , Victarion and Asha are three of my favorite characters, but i won't lie to myself when it comes to how the IB are.

[Marcus Agrippa]

No, Renly isn't going to save the Lannisters. But that's not the point. The point is, what will Renly do once he's done mopping up the Lannisters ?

The answer is that he'd likely move north up the Riverlands to deal with the rebellious North (and II if they had allied). It is likely he would deploy the Redwyne fleet against Dragonstone to deal with his stubborn brother.

In that situation, Balon would find himself holding a handful of castles on the westerlands against a numerically superior foe. With the combined North/Ironborn forces being no match for that of Renly, the outcome would be fairly predictable.

If, on the other hand, Balon is holding Moat Cailin with a strong navy to defend it, things would look quite differently.

Good point- Prehaps the best course of action was to stay out of the way and let things develop? If Renly takes the throne either help him take the North and capture Rickon and Bran or just Declare for Renly and call it a day? The Greyjoys really were in the worst postion (besides Stannis) at the beginning. If Renly would have won then it would have made sense to ally with Renly to take the North. Hopefully get some land out of it. I am not saying the IB being independent is good. That might be the worst thing for the 7 Kingdoms. Still no matter what happened getting independence would have been difficult. Attacking the North was still a bad idea because they really couldn't get anything out of it without allying with the iron throne.

[Jasta11]

Your definition of nobility appears to be quite malleable and subject to your agenda.

In one instance, nobility is a fraction of a fraction of lords, making out one in several tens or even hundreds of thousands of the total population.

In the other instance, it's every man who owns a ship.

Ah yes. of course, my ''agenda''. You caught us mate, anyone who doesn't agree with you is a secret agent of the NSA- the North Secret Agency. Dude, you are the source of endless unintentional comedy.

What do you think the ''captains and the kings'' are, random fisherman in rowboats? They're the captains of ships, called ''kings'' by Ironborn custom. In their system, that makes them as good as nobility, or close to it at least. Almost all the names brought up at the Kingsmoot are nobles, or among the close retinues of said nobles. The candidates are all nobles. It's certainly a wider affair than a regency council, but not just everyone gets to come to Old Wyk and cast his vote.

And even if the Kingsmoot was this grand exercice in liberal democracy where every single person on the Iron Islands voted, it still happened 2000 years ago at best, 4000 at worst, and the last time it happened it was an excuse for the Greyirons to take power. Even then, the current Kingsmoot was a bit of a sham, called by Aeron with the main intent of denying the throne to Euron, not legitimately choosing a King, and Euron ended up winning because he blew a magic horn and promised tons of booty. Yay democracy!

[joluoto2]

If they attacked the Lannisters they stood a better shot. At the point the Iron Islands atting Lannisport and sacking the westerlands would have freed Robbs army to keep pressure on Kingslanding and have Stannis before Blackwater push into the city. Thought the timeline if I remember was Renly's death, Greyjoy declaring independence, Kingslanding, and then the mess after. It also would have kept Robb in the game and the pressure on the South. Of course that means Stannis would either have to quit or come up with a different. I wonder if Stannis would have gone to the wall what would have Robb done? The smart thing would have been for Robb to have Shireen marry Rickon or Bran and push Stannis's claim for the throne. You would then have a Northern Lord on the Iron throne.

They would be as unable to hold on to the Westerlands, as they were to hold anything in the North (well they actually still hold Torrhen Square). Whoever sit on that ugly chair in King's Landing would ride against the Ironborn as soon as his position is secured. Balon knew it He knew the Redwyne fleet and the Royal fleet would be with the southern king (he had no idea all the miseries the Royal fleet would suffer through). Tywin, Stannis or Renly. No matter really. The king would ride against him.That's why he sailed North, because he knew Moat Cailin gave him a chance (and of ourse most of the western coast of the North was undefended and the Ironborn really like to raid undefended places). And he knew the Southerners might not care about the North.

Again, the campaign was doomed no matter which way Balon went. He did not have the men to hold anything. And his men lacked the will to actually conquer, they only wanted to raid.